Entering northern Ireland after tier 5 via republic of Ireland.

[ccrompton]

Hi,

My tier 5 youth mobility visa runs out on 8/3/2018. I am returning to new Zealand but doing travel prior.

My plan is to go to reland and hire a car and drive all around Ireland including northern Ireland. I see from the forum that tourist visas post tier 5 are mostly denied.

My question is that if I fly to Dublin, get a tourist stamp there drive into NI post tier 5 expiring, would I get into trouble do you think? Technically I've entered the uk again.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
Chris

[Wanderer]

Chances are being caught are very low, I cross the border a lot (M1) and I've seen nothing, though I think there is a pull-in area on the motorway that they must use for border checks if they ever bother.

More risky if you stopped in the North by PSNI officer etc or have an accident etc, can happen

Also might be worth checking car hire, some don't like you taking Irish cars out of the country, some whack a hefty insurance premium on.

There's tolls on motorways in the South, you have to pay, not included with a tag like in Germany.

[sah10406]

I see from the forum that tourist visas post tier 5 are mostly denied.

Link?

[Richard W]

My question is that if I fly to Dublin, get a tourist stamp there drive into NI post tier 5 expiring, would I get into trouble do you think? Technically I've entered the uk again.

Entirely lawfully, though, in accordance with Article 4 of the Immigration (Control of Entry Through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972, which allows you to stay in the UK for three months.

[ccrompton]

Hi,

I have a tier 5 visa running out on the 8th March this year. I am going to ireland (rep.) for a few weeks then onto europe. My flight to venice from Dublin transits through Gatwick airport for a few hours.

As you dont go through border control but domestic and I will have an irish tourist visa, is it okay for me to transit through without a visa? Im pretty sure its okay as I will be leaving a few hours later

My understanding is that due to the Irish-UK agreement, my UK tourist visa is valid as long as the Irish visa is granted for? Am I correct?

thanks
Chris

[Richard W]

My understanding is that due to the Irish-UK agreement, my UK tourist visa is valid as long as the Irish visa is granted for? Am I correct?

That agreement only applies to a restricted category of visa nationals, namely Indian and Chinese nationals.

I have a tier 5 visa running out on the 8th March this year. I am going to ireland (rep.) for a few weeks then onto europe. My flight to venice from Dublin transits through Gatwick airport for a few hours.

As you dont go through border control but domestic and I will have an irish tourist visa, is it okay for me to transit through without a visa? Im pretty sure its okay as I will be leaving a few hours later

You should be OK so long as you take no more than three months - The Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972 Section 4, which I referred you to a couple of weeks ago.

[vinny]

Posts merged.

[The Station Agent]

Worth bearing in mind that if the original poster is flying to Dublin from the UK they won't get an Irish entry stamp, so that plan would not work. UK and Ireland is common travel area; internal travel without border checks.

Is the original poster a visa national for UK purposes?

[Richard W]

Worth bearing in mind that if the original poster is flying to Dublin from the UK they won't get an Irish entry stamp, so that plan would not work. UK and Ireland is common travel area; internal travel without border checks.

Are you sure? It's not so long since those flying in to the Republic had to go through Irish immigration control, and my belief is that they still do. If his passport doesn't get stamped, it might be worth getting some evidence that he was in the Republic while he's there. An Irish car hire contract would be pretty convincing.

Is the original poster a visa national for UK purposes?

I've been assuming that he is a citizen of New Zealand, in which case he would not be a visa national.

[The Station Agent]

UK-Ireland is internal travel within the CTA, hence no stamp and no immigration check. Believe me, as I deal with short-term CoS for non-visa nationals all the time; I've previously had clients who sought out officers to stamp their passports on return to the UK from Ireland - they were told that it's not possible because they're not subject to immigration control.

[The Station Agent]

If the OP is leaving the UK/Ireland before YMS visa expires they should re-enter as a visitor. If they're not then I believe they will overstay.

[Wanderer]

UK-Ireland is internal travel within the CTA, hence no stamp and no immigration check. Believe me, as I deal with short-term CoS for non-visa nationals all the time; I've previously had clients who sought out officers to stamp their passports on return to the UK from Ireland - they were told that it's not possible because they're not subject to immigration control.

AIUI, the CTA only applies to UK/Irish/Manxmen and Channel Islanders. Only they are free of immigration control within the CTA.

[Richard W]

UK-Ireland is internal travel within the CTA, hence no stamp and no immigration check. Believe me, as I deal with short-term CoS for non-visa nationals all the time; I've previously had clients who sought out officers to stamp their passports on return to the UK from Ireland - they were told that it's not possible because they're not subject to immigration control.

AIUI, the CTA only applies to UK/Irish/Manxmen and Channel Islanders. Only they are free of immigration control within the CTA.

For entry to the UK, the CTA also applies to EEA citizens and their non-visa national family members if they have an enforceable EEA right of entry. Other non-visa nationals generally automatically and unrecordedly get 3 months leave to enter.

[The Station Agent]

They get the 3 months automatically only if they have an Irish entry stamp landing them there from outside the CTA. The 3 months is a de facto right to move within the CTA if they enter VIA Ireland. He hasn't entered via Ireland; he's simply moving around within the CTA. He'll get to Ireland and see no border check (if he's flying from the UK he'll go straight to baggage reclaim). All he'll have is a UK leave which will expire before his return to the UK. I don't see how nipping about within the CTA extends that, hence it is my opinion the OP's leave will have expired before he goes back to NZ; driving around Ireland will not alter that. If he left the CTA and re-entered (via Ireland or not) the situation would be different.

Home Office policy have told me explicitly that non-EU nationals (non-visa) cannot (even if they ask for it) get a UK entry stamp on entry from Ireland. This is particularly irksome for entertainers on tour, who need a UK entry stamp to work legally. Their sponsors are therefore non-compliant because their bands get no entry stamp.

As a side-issue: The fact that entertainers have the right to perform in Ireland on a general entry stamp (for up to 15 days) means nothing when they travel on to the UK - the 3-month de-facto right to travel on to the UK after their Irish entry bars any gainful employment due to the uniquely harsh wording of the Control Order 1972. This means the Irish entry stamp given to entertainers allows them to perform in Ireland but as soon as they set foot across the border they are not allowed to perform (technically even if they have Tier 5 CoS) - purely because of 2 factors:

1) the UK government will not stamp their passports on entry from Ireland, hence the CoS do not get activated.
2) the wording of the 1972 Order means that even PPE (visitor undertaking permitted paid engagements) cannot be claimed, because it prohibits all gainful employment.

[Richard W]

They get the 3 months automatically only if they have an Irish entry stamp landing them there from outside the CTA. The 3 months is a de facto right to move within the CTA if they enter VIA Ireland. He hasn't entered via Ireland; he's simply moving around within the CTA. He'll get to Ireland and see no border check (if he's flying from the UK he'll go straight to baggage reclaim). All he'll have is a UK leave which will expire before his return to the UK. I don't see how nipping about within the CTA extends that, hence it is my opinion the OP's leave will have expired before he goes back to NZ; driving around Ireland will not alter that. If he left the CTA and re-entered (via Ireland or not) the situation would be different.

4.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), this Article applies to any person who is not partial and is not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland an EEA national, or a person who is entitled to enter or remain in the United Kingdom by virtue of an enforceable EU right or any provision made under section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972, and who enters the United Kingdom on a local journey from the Republic of Ireland after having entered that Republic—
(a)on coming from a place outside the common travel area; or
(b)after leaving the United Kingdom whilst having a limited leave to enter or remain there which has since expired.

Irrelevant changes (strikethrough and highlight) made by the Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2014. I can't find what has removed the word "patrial" (misspelt "partial" in the HTML).

The expiry of the UK leave to enter or remain terminates the OP's "simply moving around within the CTA".

[koconnor]

Chances are being caught are very low, I cross the border a lot (M1) and I've seen nothing, though I think there is a pull-in area on the motorway that they must use for border checks if they ever bother.

More risky if you stopped in the North by PSNI officer etc or have an accident etc, can happen

Also might be worth checking car hire, some don't like you taking Irish cars out of the country, some whack a hefty insurance premium on.

There's tolls on motorways in the South, you have to pay, not included with a tag like in Germany.

The Belfast-Dublin Coach is frequently pulled in by Garda in Ireland and occasionally the Dublin-Belfast one by UK Border patrol in Northern Ireland. I saw the latter take two separate guys and their bags off the coach and bundle them into the back of a van for processing. I've never been stopped in a private car or on the train.