Refusal for EU4 - Review Process and other related questions

[Capricorn]

Hi All

I applied for my parents EU4 application which was proposed for refusal and today finally refused with the option to file for a review.

The reason quoted was that the application was deemed to be made on false basis with the intention to get immigration status to stay in the state. I am a BC exercising my treaty rights.

The questions I have for forum members are:

1- How long is the review process normally?
2- As the initial permission to stay (temp 4 stamp) granted is now going to expire, the DoJ will not renew it automatically and only after the appeal application will have to request another extension. Is this normally granted?
3- If the extension is granted and a re-entry is applied, is it allowed to go outside the state for a short 1-2 months visit/holidays or not? Any adverse impact on the application?
4- What are the odds of getting the outcome changed as a review? I have been reading on forums that the department is generally rejecting first time round and approving in a review?

Thanks for taking the time to respond

[zahmed05]

Hi- what were the false basis?

1- review can take long time or sometimes it’s quick. I have seen cases getting reviews in two weeks. Depends on what you present in review.

2- depends

3- yes and no impact as long as it’s short

4- answer above question for further help

[Capricorn]

Hi Zahmad, thanks for your reply.

the basis of false info was that they came to UK on a visit visa and then moved over to Ireland with me. The DoJ is stating that the intention of coming to UK was not that of visit as they have requested the info from the UKBA. the UK visa app had shown a rental income along with financial support from me. That rental income no longer existed when we filed for EUTR app and hence was not mentioned. But cross checking they claim that info is misleading between the two apps and hence EUTR is made on false info.

[zahmed05]

This sounds unfair. Go for review. You should be fine.

[Mal111]

how is it sound unfair to you.
objectively if you have their application in hand what would be your decision and based on what grounds you would approve or refuse the application ?

[Mal111]

Capricorn
Did your parents enter Ireland legally did they have a valid permit or even a visit visa to enter Ireland?

[zahmed05]

how is it sound unfair to you.
objectively if you have their application in hand what would be your decision and based on what grounds you would approve or refuse the application ?

The EU law doesn't permit the immigration officer to reject the application based on current immigration status. This is unfair because there can be change of circumstances at any stage. They may have entered UK in good faith but then change of circumstances may have forced them to move to Ireland.

The rental income is a gray area and that should be explained. The OP should explain why the rental income doesn't exist anymore with solid proofs.

If OP was sending them money regularly, they are dependent on him and he is exercising treaty in ROI then he has a solid case.

[Mal111]

immigration office didn't reject there application based on their current status in fact they currently have stamp 4 temp which will expire soon
you should probably read op post first before jumping to ridicules' conclusions

[zahmed05]

immigration office didn't reject there application based on their current status in fact they currently have stamp 4 temp which will expire soon
you should probably read op post first before jumping to ridicules' conclusions

When did i say it was rejected based on that? It was an answer to your question from OP. I did read and explained my reasons in my opinion.

you should probably read op post first before jumping to ridicules' conclusions

You've the right to disagree but refrain from showing your level of maturity by using the unacceptable language. You may have some deficiencies in your character but it may be in your best interest to not show those in a public forum. Over and out as I don't have time to argue with so called adults who haven't yet learnt the use of right words on a public forum.

[arz1986]

Sorry to hear that. It is appropriate to take solicitor advice. I think rental income which u submit in UK visit visa application but didnot submit it in ireland EU1 application is the problem. prior to state dependance is not proven at first. if she have monthly income, how can she be dependent on you. so, financial she is not totally dependent on you, prior coming to ireland or in her home country. I think INIS may say u donot provide full information or misleading information in first EU1 form.

[Mal111]

if you can genuinely and beyond doubt prove that your parents financial situation has substantially changed since they left home country then you have a chance of approval at review.
im sure your going through a solicitor but just make sure your solicitor is well aware of the directives.

[Capricorn]

Thanks all for taking time to reply.

The full situation is as follows:

1- They were partially dependent while in their home country as their full expenditure exceeded the income they generated locally and I used to cover the rest.
2- They applied for UK Visa showing the above facts.
3- before travelling to UK, they decided to sell the property and managing the rental part was not possible due to poor health. Afterall they are above 75 yrs of age and "fully managed by agency" concept does not exist there. This is where the rental income no longer existed
4- They have been regular visitors in UK and already held visa 3 times before. The only problem this time was that the UK visa app was very recent - i.e. 2 months before moving to Ireland, hence it looks like getting UK visa for the sake of exercising treaty rights.
5- A month or two before applying for UK visa, one of the parent got diagnosed with cancer and had to undergo emergency treatment. The visiting to UK was part of recovery process by giving them time to spend with their family here in UK and hence also was a key factor in deciding to sell the property and forego the rental income. The medical expenses were also covered by me. The daily medical expense now has increased such that even if they were to stay back home, I would have to increase the monthly contributions to cover the additional expenses incurred.
6- After the initial letter received for "proposal to refuse the app", I used a solicitor and sent all the info including the medical situation which was not initially provided as part of EU1 app as I thought it was a straightforward process of just sending a form with basic info asked based upon the current situation


The jist of the allegations made are:

1- The facts provided to UK authorities isnt the same as declared in EU1 app
2- The UK visa was a ploy to enter UK and hence make their way into Ireland
3- The entire treaty rights exercising is a way to stay in the state and not a genuine application

So my questions are:

1- What chances I stand in the review? and approx how long the process takes?

2- I am going to apply for review in next week or so via a solicitor but dont know what else to provide in addition to all that has been provided

3- They have been my full dependent while they have been in Ireland (since last 8-9 months) and I also have bought medical insurance on the advice of the solicitor even though not needed - just to confirm that they will not be a burden on the state. Is there any other option I can explore if not the treaty rights?

4- I have been told by the solicitor that the extension for the temp stamp will not be given by garda but instead have to be requested via INIS as their initial app is now refused. How true is it and what are the odds of getting that extension?

[arz1986]

i think if you parent have medical condition then review can be successful. they will not accept now your financial dependency (because u cannot prove fully financial dependancy on u), you have to prove medical condition usually elder parent are on medication. try to make ground on it.

[arz1986]

Hi capicorn,

I was in similar situation last year. Once u apply for review, INIS will send you 10 months extension letter but in my case review decision come within a month. If you already submit the medical proof, can u let us know what document you submitted to prove medical dependency on you. did you submit GP letter or consultant letter/medical report in EU1 application. It might work in review.

[Ben]

The jist of the allegations made are:

1- The facts provided to UK authorities isnt the same as declared in EU1 app

So what? The Irish authorities should only be interested in the facts of this application and not in the applications submitted previously to other countries.

2- The UK visa was a ploy to enter UK and hence make their way into Ireland

Again, so what? How your family members entered Ireland, or where they went before coming to Ireland (or how they went there) is completely immaterial and has no relation to or effect on the family members rights in Ireland.

3- The entire treaty rights exercising is a way to stay in the state and not a genuine application

A completely nonsensical assertion. If a British citizen is exercising treaty rights in Ireland then he is exercising treaty rights. Any intention or rationale for doing so is immaterial.

[Capricorn]

Thanks Ben

Yes I agree to all your points. There is another example of very similar case by Pal80UK who had the same situation and was also sent a similar wording letter about "proposal to refuse" and was then granted the visa after he submitted the reasons.

I am in almost 100% same boat but in our case, we got a refusal instead and now we are going for a review and hopefully will get the decision overturned. This clearly shows the discrepancies in internal policies and it is at complete will of the case worker whom they choose to reject or approve as I think this is some way of dragging out the cases to sift the genuine vs fake apps. Those dragged through review process has to suffer another 1yr of waiting period and some just give up and go back.

[Ben]

You may also choose to ask Solvit to intervene, on your behalf. It is a free service.
http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index_en.htm

[Capricorn]

Hi All

We ended up applying for review and still waiting for a response and has been nearly 2.5 months.

Any idea how long the review process takes these days?

Also, as expected, the solicitor has stopped responding after taking all the money and I wonder if I should contact the department about where the application is and how long it will take? or chase the solicitor to ask the same?

Other than that, anyone used Solvit for such enquiries?

[Capricorn]

All - It has now been over 12 months waiting for a decision on my review (EU4)

Does anyone know what my options are other than waiting? Is there a way I can chase INIS to conclude faster?

[arz1986]

only option is wait. I am waiting for 19-20 months.

[littlerr]

An email won't hurt. Just explain that you and your parents are suffering anxiety because of this ongoing ordeal. You can even voluntarily send in more documents to prove that you are all law abiding residents and your conditions have remain unchanged.

[arz1986]

it is better if u write to department and ask update on your case. I think in September 2018, after 12-13 months I receive the letter for INIS, they will be in contact with us in coming weeks. but after 7 months till now no further correspondence.

[Capricorn]

only option is wait. I am waiting for 19-20 months.

Are you also waiting for a response on your review app? Have you involved a solicitor or Solvit?

[arz1986]

Yes. I involve solicitor and write three letter but only acknowledge I received till now. Still waiting.

[Capricorn]

Hi everyone

I finally received a letter from the dept asking to submit docs in relation to my review app.

They have asked for the usual (seems like a templated letter) - mainly focusing on the sponsor's financial status, bank statements, invoices etc as well as proof from the applicant mainly around residency, utility bills, tenancy agreement etc.

I have a question around the financial income of the sponsor. I havent submitted my self-assessment for Income Tax for 2018 as the due date is Oct 2019. Will that be an issue or will the dept know that the deadline hasnt arrived yet? I do have the statement from 2017.

Also does anyone know if there is any threshold/income levels that I should be earning to maintain my expenses?

Thanks