Long-Term Residence (EU) - Moving to Germany

[Chio]

Hi,

I am a non-EU citizen with a long-term residence permit (Directive 2003/109/EC) in an EU country and now I want to move to Germany for work. Preferably, I would like to transfer this long-term residence permit to Germany, which would, at least in theory, grant me certain rights when it comes to employment. I tried searching the forums, but the threads I've read are quite old and I haven't found much specific information on how to accomplish this.

You can find more information for this permit on the following page:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... SUM:l23034

Taken from the given link, "Long-term residents may move to live, work or study in another EU country for more than 3 months, provided they satisfy certain conditions. They may be accompanied by their family members".

Is anyone familiar with these conditions in Germany?

Thanks

[Ximon]

I am also interested in this type of resident permit but I have as yet not obtained a long-term permit in any EU Member State. But from what I have read, Member States have the right to establish quotas if deemed necessary and that the UK, Ireland and Denmark are specifically excluded from the programme.

I also know read that Germany issues by far the most Blue Cards of any country in the EU so perhaps that is a positive sign.

But I have also read that some Member States don't like the programme and may put up administrative roadblocks for granting the permit. Sorry I don't remember which countries or the source for this.

[Caravel88]

Hi Chio. What is your nationality?

Here is are some links that may help you to get an idea (for Sweden and Netherlands):
https://www.migrationsverket.se/English ... dents.html
https://ind.nl/en/other/Pages/Economica ... nt-EC.aspx

I wouldn't hesitate to contact German authorities to get the exact requirements.
You will probably be required to find a job or to prove that you can financially support yourself in the long term.

Hi,

I am a non-EU citizen with a long-term residence permit (Directive 2003/109/EC) in an EU country and now I want to move to Germany for work. Preferably, I would like to transfer this long-term residence permit to Germany, which would, at least in theory, grant me certain rights when it comes to employment. I tried searching the forums, but the threads I've read are quite old and I haven't found much specific information on how to accomplish this.

You can find more information for this permit on the following page:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... SUM:l23034

Taken from the given link, "Long-term residents may move to live, work or study in another EU country for more than 3 months, provided they satisfy certain conditions. They may be accompanied by their family members".

Is anyone familiar with these conditions in Germany?

Thanks

[Chio]

Thank you for your answers!

I have a Serbian citizenship. Caravel88, if I understood correctly the links you gave me, it depends a lot on the country in which you apply to work. In the case of Netherlands, this long-term residence would ease up several conditions for employing non-EU citizens, but it won't do much -- i.e. I would still need to go through the tedious process for obtaining the Blue Card. On the other hand, in the case of Sweden there is not even need for a work permit, one may start to work immediately and should just apply for a temporary residence along the way. Please correct me if I missed something.

Anyway, I've sent an e-mail to the German embassy, I hope they will clear this up a bit.

[Ximon]

I feel pretty certain that the purpose of the Long-term Residence (EU) is designed to grant non-EU citizens the same rights as EU citizens to live and work in the EU so no work permits, blue cards, or job offered should be required. The only requirement may be to register in whatever country you move to. Kind of like the US green card programme. Some countries may try to challenge it but I think most won't especially Germany who is a dedicated EU Member. Does anyone disagree?

[Caravel88]

Excellent choice Chio.
Don't be discouraged. You have some rights that count for something.
As long as you secure a job, it should go OK.

Thank you for your answers!

I have a Serbian citizenship. Caravel88, if I understood correctly the links you gave me, it depends a lot on the country in which you apply to work. In the case of Netherlands, this long-term residence would ease up several conditions for employing non-EU citizens, but it won't do much -- i.e. I would still need to go through the tedious process for obtaining the Blue Card. On the other hand, in the case of Sweden there is not even need for a work permit, one may start to work immediately and should just apply for a temporary residence along the way. Please correct me if I missed something.

Anyway, I've sent an e-mail to the German embassy, I hope they will clear this up a bit.

[forgesfire]

Have you heard anything back from the German embassy? I also have an EU long term residence permit issued under 2003/109/ec and am pretty confused about what advantages it gives in terms of moving to countries like Germany. I know Sweden makes it easy but anyone else?

[Chio]

I feel pretty certain that the purpose of the Long-term Residence (EU) is designed to grant non-EU citizens the same rights as EU citizens to live and work in the EU so no work permits, blue cards, or job offered should be required. The only requirement may be to register in whatever country you move to. Kind of like the US green card programme. Some countries may try to challenge it but I think most won't especially Germany who is a dedicated EU Member. Does anyone disagree?

Excellent choice Chio.
Don't be discouraged. You have some rights that count for something.
As long as you secure a job, it should go OK.

Thanks to both of you for the encouragement.

Have you heard anything back from the German embassy? I also have an EU long term residence permit issued under 2003/109/ec and am pretty confused about what advantages it gives in terms of moving to countries like Germany. I know Sweden makes it easy but anyone else?

Unfortunately, the German embassy in the country of my origin wasn't able to help me, nor did the German embassy in the country I currently live in. I did however find some links that describe it's relatively easy to move to Germany with this permit.

Where would you like to move to? Maybe I can help you find some information online.

[zhangquan16]

I have a very similar situation here. I have the long-term residence in Italy, a signed contract with the German company and the Arbeitserlaubnis from German Federal Employment Agency.

I don't know if I will still need to apply the working visa because the German embassy told me that I will need to verify with German immigration office. I have already sent email to the immigration office but as far there is no reply.

Anyone knows what should I do now? Thanks

[flozzer]

There is a summary from the Berlin Senate (the state government of Berlin) precisely about this, which you might find useful: https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/325475/en/

I imagine this would be similar in other states in Germany. If you tell us which EU member state you are moving from and which part of Germany you will be moving to we might be able to find more specific information for you.

[zhangquan16]

There is a summary from the Berlin Senate (the state government of Berlin) precisely about this, which you might find useful: https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/325475/en/

I imagine this would be similar in other states in Germany. If you tell us which EU member state you are moving from and which part of Germany you will be moving to we might be able to find more specific information for you.

Thanks, this is so helpful! I got my long-term residence EU in Italy and I am moving to Hamburg. Do you think in Hamburg the procedure is the same?

[flozzer]

I got my long-term residence EU in Italy and I am moving to Hamburg. Do you think in Hamburg the procedure is the same?

Largely, yes. If you already speak German, here is some more general exegesis on the relevant laws and procedures: https://www.anerkennung-in-deutschland. ... iq-neu.pdf.

A quick summary of what it says about the general procedure is this:

• If you are a long term resident of another EU state and you intend to stay in Germany for more than 3 months, you must apply for an Aufenthaltserlaubnis (residence permit) according to section 38 AufenthG (German: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufe ... __38a.html - Non-official English translation: https://germanlawarchive.iuscomp.org/?p=281).
• You can apply after you arrive in Germany (but it has to be within the first three months, and knowing how things can drag I'd advise doing it as soon as possible once you've moved and gathered the necessary documents). You make this application to the local Ausländerbehörde (authority for foreigner's affairs) in the city/state where you live when you move to German. There is an offical application form, which you should be able to request from the foreigner's office.
• Usually you will be asked for the following documents: Proof of your long-term residence in another EU state, valid passport, proof that you are able to support yourself and any family that come with you (e.g. firm job offer, proof of substantial savings, ...), proof that you have sufficient insurance (usually if you get a full-time job your employer would help you get into one of the insurance schemes, called Gesetzliche Krankenkassen, the employer pays part of the insurance and you pay part of it), if applicable proof of purpose of stay (e.g. show you have a firm job offer, proof that you undertake self-employment, proof of enrolment at a university, firm place on an apprenticeship scheme, ...)
• If the office takes longer than the three month limit to make a decision, they have to give you a document called "Fiktionsbescheinigung" (probationary certificate) according to section 81(3) AufenthG. This will allow you to stay even after the three months until they have made a final decision.
• If you apply from within Germany, they may sometimes ask you to retrospectively apply for a visa. The document I looked at says this is unlawful and you don't have to do that, since Section 39(3,6) of the AufenthV (not AufenthG!) say that if you don't need a visa due to Schengen status the relevant passages are not applicable, and that the requirnments regarding visa in section 38 AufenthG are then automatically fulfilled.
• After 5 years residence in Germany you can apply for long-term residence in Germany itself.

I've had a quick look specifically regarding Hamburg and couldn't find much. What I would do is, if you have basically got all the things together that entitle you to the residence permit, make your initial move to Hamburg, call their Citizens' Hotline (040 115 [you could try calling +49 40 115 from abroad to check in advance but I'm not sure if it will work]) and you need to ask them whether you should go to either the "zentrale Ausländeramt" (central office for frogeigner's affairs) or the "Bezirksamt" (municipal office) to get the forms and lodge the application. It's unclear to me which of the two is responsible for this from their website, even as a German familiar with the jargon, and you want to avoid having to run back and forth between them, so just call and ask. They may even be able to arrange an appointment for you over the phone, but often you can just turn up and wait for an hour or two to be seen.

[zhangquan16]

I got my long-term residence EU in Italy and I am moving to Hamburg. Do you think in Hamburg the procedure is the same?

Largely, yes. If you already speak German, here is some more general exegesis on the relevant laws and procedures: https://www.anerkennung-in-deutschland. ... iq-neu.pdf.

A quick summary of what it says about the general procedure is this:

• If you are a long term resident of another EU state and you intend to stay in Germany for more than 3 months, you must apply for an Aufenthaltserlaubnis (residence permit) according to section 38 AufenthG (German: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufe ... __38a.html - Non-official English translation: https://germanlawarchive.iuscomp.org/?p=281).
• You can apply after you arrive in Germany (but it has to be within the first three months, and knowing how things can drag I'd advise doing it as soon as possible once you've moved and gathered the necessary documents). You make this application to the local Ausländerbehörde (authority for foreigner's affairs) in the city/state where you live when you move to German. There is an offical application form, which you should be able to request from the foreigner's office.
• Usually you will be asked for the following documents: Proof of your long-term residence in another EU state, valid passport, proof that you are able to support yourself and any family that come with you (e.g. firm job offer, proof of substantial savings, ...), proof that you have sufficient insurance (usually if you get a full-time job your employer would help you get into one of the insurance schemes, called Gesetzliche Krankenkassen, the employer pays part of the insurance and you pay part of it), if applicable proof of purpose of stay (e.g. show you have a firm job offer, proof that you undertake self-employment, proof of enrolment at a university, firm place on an apprenticeship scheme, ...)
• If the office takes longer than the three month limit to make a decision, they have to give you a document called "Fiktionsbescheinigung" (probationary certificate) according to section 81(3) AufenthG. This will allow you to stay even after the three months until they have made a final decision.
• If you apply from within Germany, they may sometimes ask you to retrospectively apply for a visa. The document I looked at says this is unlawful and you don't have to do that, since Section 39(3,6) of the AufenthV (not AufenthG!) say that if you don't need a visa due to Schengen status the relevant passages are not applicable, and that the requirnments regarding visa in section 38 AufenthG are then automatically fulfilled.
• After 5 years residence in Germany you can apply for long-term residence in Germany itself.

I've had a quick look specifically regarding Hamburg and couldn't find much. What I would do is, if you have basically got all the things together that entitle you to the residence permit, make your initial move to Hamburg, call their Citizens' Hotline (040 115 [you could try calling +49 40 115 from abroad to check in advance but I'm not sure if it will work]) and you need to ask them whether you should go to either the "zentrale Ausländeramt" (central office for frogeigner's affairs) or the "Bezirksamt" (municipal office) to get the forms and lodge the application. It's unclear to me which of the two is responsible for this from their website, even as a German familiar with the jargon, and you want to avoid having to run back and forth between them, so just call and ask. They may even be able to arrange an appointment for you over the phone, but often you can just turn up and wait for an hour or two to be seen.

Thank you so much!!! You saved my life!

[Chio]

flozzer, your reply was of huuge help!

I have a very similar situation here. I have the long-term residence in Italy, a signed contract with the German company and the Arbeitserlaubnis from German Federal Employment Agency.

I don't know if I will still need to apply the working visa because the German embassy told me that I will need to verify with German immigration office. I have already sent email to the immigration office but as far there is no reply.

Anyone knows what should I do now? Thanks

Was it really necessary to obtain the Arbeitserlaubnis? If I'm not mistaken, you could get a job without a work permit, given that you already had a long term residence in Italy.

[flozzer]

Was it really necessary to obtain the Arbeitserlaubnis? If I'm not mistaken, you could get a job without a work permit, given that you already had a long term residence in Italy.

This depends on the job. Many professions in Germany are regulated (including most trades). If you intend to work in a regulated profession you need a permit from the Arbeitsagentur (job centre) confirming that you are allowed to exercise that profession in Germany. They will give you that paper after checking that you have equivalent education etc. or otherwise the necessary certification to du this and if not should advise you what you need to do, what you are allowed and not allowed to do, etc. This requirement is also part of Sec 38a(3) AufenthG. However, in most cases the Arbeitserlaubnis as a document in its own right has been abolished so may not be needed. I think if you are moving for work it might be a good idea to just get this if you have any doubt at all, or at least just check with Arbeitsagentur that you don't need it (just call them, tell them you're moving for work from country X and want to do job Y, do you need any permit to work as Y?).

That being said, I wouldn't panic in any case. The way it seems is that the residence permit is sufficient to prove right of work (excl. certain regulated professions), so if they give it to you you should be good. If you need any extra forms for related trades, your employer will tell you. If the foreigners office need a document from the Arbeitsagentur they will also tell you. Appointments don't cost anything, so worst case you'll pay with a day off running around to collect some extra paper if they tell you you need it; if they don't, then happy times all round. The lesson is not to leave it till the last day to apply given the situation is somewhat unclear.

[Chio]

Thank you very much, flozzer. I tried to call the number you provided earlier, but it referred me to their website. I reckon it might be because today is a public holiday, so I will try again tomorrow. I am not in a hurry though as the underlying reason why I want to move there is because I identify very much with the German people and their culture (I am very satisfied with my current job as well).

Anyway, when I first went through the procedure of obtaining the work permit and the work visa as a non-EU citizen, I remember it was somewhat a lengthy process and several companies refused to employ me because of this (btw, I am a software engineering by profession). They mentioned it was because it was easier for them to hire an EU citizen for this same job and the costs for hiring me were much greater. On top of this, there were quite a few conditions to be met to obtain this work permit. After a while, I found a big German company that was willing to hire me and they have resolved most of the documentation on my behalf, but I wasn't able to change employers after several years without going back through this same procedure all over again. This is why it would be preferable for me to skip the process of obtaining the work permit and work visa and have the freedom to find an employer or change them in a similar way an EU citizen would. Otherwise, I don't see much use for this long term residence permit for someone who wants to switch countries between EU.

[forgesfire]

This is a really interesting thread. I found this link which could be very helpful. It is a study from 2015 that analyzes the disparate implementation of direction 2003/109/ec by country.

It is striking how differently different countries have implemented this directive, with Sweden, Portugal, Czech Republic and a few others basically granting unlimited work rights and others like Finland treating you exactly as any other non-EU outlander.

I am still trying to figure out how this directive is currently being implemented in Germany, where I am interested in moving, though I would need to find a low-skill job once I arrive and I have no idea how to make that qualify. Otherwise, Sweden is an option because they treat Long Term Residents of other states just as EU citizens.

It would be great to get an update from any of the previous posters in this thread regarding the progress you all have made regarding this topic!

[forgesfire]

Oh and here's the link! forgot to submit it above ^^

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites ... r_diss.pdf

[secret.simon]

Very useful link. Thank you.

[EFP]

Great post - I find myself in a similar situation. I'm costarican, married to a Romanian and holding a family reunification long stay visa (D/VF) from RO. After several screening and formal interviews I'm very likely to get a job offer in Berlin on the second week in Jan, working for an IT company managing their systems landscape modernization program.

The German embassy personnel confirmed to me that I would need to register myself upon arrival to Berlin, present several documents (listed on the website shared by some of you on previous posts, e.g. employment contract, housing lease contract, etc) in order to get the German residence permit that will allow me to work.

I've been told this way is a bit faster than requesting a work visa from scratch so I decided to pursue things this way. In any case, I will be picking formal conversations about the topic with my potential future employer second week of Jan, after the holiday period and confirm the next steps.

What I also did was to anticipate and book an appointment at the Foreigners Registration Office for mid-March.

Anyone with an update to share about your personal experiences?
Regards

[makaveli13]

Thank you very much, flozzer. I tried to call the number you provided earlier, but it referred me to their website. I reckon it might be because today is a public holiday, so I will try again tomorrow. I am not in a hurry though as the underlying reason why I want to move there is because I identify very much with the German people and their culture (I am very satisfied with my current job as well).

(btw, I am a software engineering by profession).

Hi, i have same case as you. I am software developer moving from another EU country to Germany to find work. I see that you did not write for some time and i assume that you had success with your application and therefore I have a few questions:

• Did you manage to get German residence permit?

• Did you need Arbeitserlaubnis to work as a software engineer? If thats the case did you get Arbeitserlaubnis ?

• Did you have job offer before aplying for German residence permit?

• What did they ask for "proof that you are able to support yourself" (I intend to move to Germany to join my fiance which is currently on a master studies there and start looking for a job)

Any info would really help!

The lesson is not to leave it till the last day to apply given the situation is somewhat unclear.

Your help would be appreciated as well!

[makaveli13]

flozzer, your reply was of huuge help!

Just wanted to mention that i am from Serbia as well

[makaveli13]

So i visited lawyer specialized in immigration and these are the facts regarding our case:

• Under section 38a (EU Long-Term Residence) you can come to work to Germany

• You have basically the same rights for working as if you would go trough embassy,which means that every job that you apply has to be checked with the ministry of labor.

• Only perks are that you don't have to go trough lengthy process in your country and after 12 months of working for the same company you get unrestricted access to the German work market.

Here are few more things that i learned today:

• Even with "white" list job offer you are not 100 % sure that you will get a permit.

• Bigger salary means larger chance for you to get permit

• He had a case of two brothers,who came for identical (painting) job offer,one got resident permit,other one didn't.

• Salary shouldn't be less then 2000 EUR gross as it will undermine your chances of getting the permit.

• He said that in his experience around 70 % of people gets work permit.

I hope this helped a bit, i would like to hear from other people about their experiences.

[reza1813]

I am a non-EU citizen(Iranian) with a long-term residence permit at Italy and now I want to move to Germany for work. Preferably, I would like to TRANSFER this long-term residence permit(Soggiornante di lungo periodo–UE) to Germany(Daueraufenthalt –EU), which would, at least in theory, grant me certain rights when it comes to employment. Is it any possibility to transfer it and how will be accomplished in Germany?
I tried searching the forums, but I haven't found much specific information on how to accomplish this.
It would be your kindness if let me know. Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,
Hamidreza

[Vadc]

So i visited lawyer specialized in immigration and these are the facts regarding our case:

• Under section 38a (EU Long-Term Residence) you can come to work to Germany

• You have basically the same rights for working as if you would go trough embassy,which means that every job that you apply has to be checked with the ministry of labor.

• Only perks are that you don't have to go trough lengthy process in your country and after 12 months of working for the same company you get unrestricted access to the German work market.

I’m in a similar situation, planning to move with Estonian long term residence permit to Germany to work as a software engineer, this whole topic was of a huge help, big thanks to everyone sharing.

I’ve found in some sources the same information as here, that after 12 months of moving in a residence permit allowing to exercise an economical activity shall be granted, but can’t really find what type of PR that would be? Is it a PR for employment, just not attached to any particular employer, or is it a PR that would allow to stay in Germany as long as I am able to support myself economically. Does anyone know what’s usually the term this second PR is being issued for? Would appreciate if someone who got to that point, or just knows the answers, shared it here. Thanks!