Non-EU wife of a British citizen in Italy

[mym]

But it's ridiculous! I can go back to the UK whenever I want to! I don't need to answer any questions! I'm a British citizen, after all!

You are, but your wife isn't. That's how they see it.

We're just going to board the Eurostar with the documents that the LAW requires and see what happens.

Good for you. Then sue the people for inconvenience.

[Richard66]

What beats me is why don't you people who live in the UK kick and scream? I would, for example, if I were asked to fork out £500 for a spouse visa when such a visa should be (according to CE directive 2004/38) free.

It also is extraordinary that the visa office of a British consulate should be in ignorance of the rules that govern the issue of visas. The letter I got yesterday proves just that: that the British consular authorities are not prepared to exercise their duties.

[mym]

asked to fork out £500 for a spouse visa when such a visa should be (according to CE directive 2004/38) free.

Spose Visas are not free, EU Family Permits are.

The directive does not cover citizens of the host state unless they are moving from another EU state. You are in a much more favourable situation than many of us...

[smalldog]

I think I have spotted the issue here.

Are you applying to visit the UK, or are you applying to live there and be either self employed, employed, study, or be financially self sufficient? These are the main categories for which you would be considered as 'exercising your treaty rights', and unless you are in one of these categories then you would not be able to sponsor your wife under EEA law.

This was true until April last year, but haven't things changed under the new directive? Now there is a new treaty right of an initial 3 months residence for any purpose whatsoever. I think the vice-consul is not fully aware of current EU law.

[Richard66]

They certainly have, Victoria! There is a 3-month residence period which is unconditional. You are only a "qualified person" after this period lapses. In the case of a UK citizen, of course, this does not apply. Even the British regulations are clear and state this and, what's more, they state that the UK citizen will only be considered as an EEA citizen IN RELATION TO HIS FAMILY MEMBER. That is, for my wife's benefit, I'm considered as an EEA citizen, while, on my own right, I'm a UK citizen. Let me say the vice consul knows nothing: he had to contact UK Visas to give me the crazy information he gave me.

Does the fact my wife is Russian have any influence? After all, Russian spies who murder other Russian spies in London bars...

In answer to Mark:

Ah, but this is the point! The directive is not addressed to EEA/Swiss citizens "exercising their treaty rights" (this is, incidentally, a phrase only found in the UK Immigration Regulations). It applies to ALL Citizens, independently of where they live. This is so much true that an Italian can marry and return to Italy with his wife or be followed by her with no problems whatsoever (and free), while before marriage it might prove impossible to secure a visa for her. Doesn't it seem to you logical that a British citizen is a EEA Citizen regardless of where he lives?

[Richard66]

Mistake: indeed, incredible as it may seem, the directive does only apply to people residing outside of their own country. It's the Italians who, rather logically, extended these rights to their own citizens.

[mym]

Mistake: indeed, incredible as it may seem, the directive does only apply to people residing outside of their own country. It's the Italians who, rather logically, extended these rights to theirt own citizens.

Quite. :(

My partner is russian, so when we marry shortly I have the whole sorry expensive saga to go through to get him over here...

BTW, you might enjoy this from another messageboard:

"I decided the best way of ensuring hasstle free check in / Passport checks would be to go as prepared as possible. So before leaving for Gatwick i printed of a copy of the Schengen Convention, Article 21 in English and Spanish which clearly stated that my wife's Greek Residency Permit would allow her clearance for a Spanish holiday. I also printed off Regulation 1030/2002 which lays down a uniform format for residence permits (just to leave nothing to chance)... Anyway... We got to LGW airport, went to the BA desk to check in and handed over our Passport's, the guy very politely said he would need to check her permit, did so, apologised for the delay, gave us our boarding cards and we were off to the bar!! Then the fun started... On arrival in Spain we were ushered into the non EU line where my wife's documents were checked. The official looked at the residency permit, looked at us and just said 'no, London' and pointed back the way we came. i then put a copy of the Schengen Convention, in Spanish, under his nose which he appeared to read before saying 'NO, London'. We then proceeded to argue / debate for at least 20 mins, him in Spanish (he spoke no English), me in English after which time he smiled and mimicked tearing up my wife's Passport. he was genuinely not going to let us in and just kept shouting 'London London', but, we stood our ground and when he saw we weren't going to go anywhere someone else was called. By the time the next official arrived we'd waited about 40 mins. The new official took one look at the permit, said something in Spanish to the other guy, returned our paperword, smiled and waved us through, simple as..."

[Richard66]

I've just got a reply from the UK SOLVIT centre (which hasn't solved anything). The situation is indeed ludicrous.

Any other EU citizen can go to the UK with his third country family member without a visa. A British citizen can return to the UK with his third country family member (according to the SOLVIT, but aren't they in the pay of the UK govenment, the London one?) if he were to work. If he returns for a visit my family member needs to apply for a visa!

Has anyone heard of a more ridiculous situation?

[mym]

(according to the SOLVIT, but aren't they in the pay of the UK govenment, the London one?)

Did you not approach the Italian SOLVIT office?

As the lovely Amanda said upthread, I think there is a test case here that could be taken to court.

But yes, it's true they can require a visa (unless she has an italian residence card), but it is "issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure" and they cannot ask for anything other than your passports and proof of family relationship (ie wedding certificate).

[Richard66]

I approached both, the Italian and the British one.

I also have received an e-mail from the Citizen's signpost service that tells me I can travel with my wife, provided she has the Italian residence card and they call it by it's Italian name: permesso di soggiorno, and this is what my wife has. This permit states she is the wife of a comunity citizen resident in Italy for family purposes and is valid till 2012 (actually, after mine expires!)

I'd love to take this to the ECJ, but the costs must be immense! And when would I get an answer? Maybe in 2013?

[Richard66]

Does anyone else see the wider picture? Take these points:

1) An EEA or Swiss citizen in the UK enjoys, in relation to his non-EEA family members, better protection than UK citizens do;

2) It is against the law of (any) the land to grant more rights and liberties to foreigners (in this case all other EEA or Swiss nationals) than to the natives of this country, in this case, the UK;

3) A UK national can return to the UK with his non-EEA/Swiss family members while a UK national resident in the UK cannot be joined by them;

4) At least Italy grants the very same rights of family reunion to Italian citizens that they grant to EEA/Swiss nationals. There is no difference, except that Italians may benefit from more favourable conditions.

5) In the UK it is all other EEA/Swiss nationals that benefit from these more favourable conditions and not the UK nationals themselves.

This means that the EEA family permit is a pathetic trial by the British government to avoid the unavoidable: that its own policy toward non-EEA/Swiss national family members is to be contested at the courts.. The moment a UK national manages to enter his own country under the new, more favourable regulations (Regulation 9) the doors will be open for UK nationals to contest the law which states a wife needs to apply for a visa and to pay £500 for this.

Family members of United Kingdom nationals
9.—(1) If the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied, these Regulations apply to a person who
is the family member of a United Kingdom national as if the United Kingdom national were an
EEA national.
(2) The conditions are that—
(a) the United Kingdom national is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed
person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom; and
(b) if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the
parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil
partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national
returned to the United Kingdom.
(3) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of a United Kingdom national the
United Kingdom national shall be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for
the purpose of the application of regulation 13 to that family member.

Is there no one out there willing to sue the UK government for discrimination against its own citizens?

[mym]

Does anyone else see the wider picture?

Of course.

However it *has* been tested in the courts and National Legislation overrides EU Treaty Law when it comes to how states treat their own nationals within their own borders.

Have a read of http://eumovement.wordpress.com/info-united-kingdom/ esp the string of comments at the foot.

[Richard66]

In the UK there still is a parliament, isn't there? I was suggesting not going to the courts, but getting the laws changed. It's absurd that foreigners should have more priviledges than UK nationals in the UK, while a UK national has the very same priviledges than do the locals in, say Italy or the Czech Republic. Yes, for me in Italy there's only ONE difference between the residence card for my wife and the residence card for the wife of an Italian: hers is valid 5 years while the one for the wife of an Italian is valid indefinitively. Otherwise, be both enjoy the very same rights of family reunion and the same seems to be true elsewhere. It is so in the Czech Republic: all you need to do is to check the homepage of their visa Internet site site.

[Richard66]

There... I suggest to you who have problems in bringing your third-country family members to throw your weight about to get the laws changed and I'm greeted with a deafening silence.

Virtually every other EEA country (you may check Italy, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia...) consider the family members of a EEA citizen on parr with the family member of a citizen of their own country. The only exception I've managed to find so far are the UK and Ireland. And they are unique in treating EEA family members BETTER than UK family members.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[VictoriaS]

You are right. But to get this changed would be impossible.

Int he current political climate, there is no way the Government would entertain the idea of making it easier for UK nationals to bring in their spouses and partners, and a majority of people who vote wouldn't want this anyway.

So the only way to get this anomaly changed is to make it harder for EEA nationals...woudl would require the UK revoking the treaty of Maastricht. I somehow don't see this happening any time soon!

Victoria

[Richard66]

It's sad really, to see how the UK is distancing itself each time more from the EU with its strange policies. It is certainly gaining no friends this side of the Channel. Very often, when I say I'm English, people say: "Ah, but the UK is not in the EU!" I just hope people here don't start thinking it's a good idea to retaliate.

[Richard66]

Today I booked return tickets to London for my wife and me. Leter I'll call the airline (or go there personally) to ask what their position is: will they let my wife embark? I think it's better to let them know beforehand.

As for Immigration at London... Any suggestions on how to behave? I mean to take Directive 2004/38/EC.

[Richard66]

More of this discussion at: Reply from Spanish Consulate regarding la Directiva 2004/38:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=18979

Today I have sent my petition to the European Parliament with copies to the British Embassy in Rome and to both Solvit UK and Solvit Italy.

Let's see the effect this will have.

[JAJ]

Does anyone else see the wider picture? Take these points:

1) An EEA or Swiss citizen in the UK enjoys, in relation to his non-EEA family members, better protection than UK citizens do;

2) It is against the law of (any) the land to grant more rights and liberties to foreigners (in this case all other EEA or Swiss nationals) than to the natives of this country, in this case, the UK;

3) A UK national can return to the UK with his non-EEA/Swiss family members while a UK national resident in the UK cannot be joined by them;

4) At least Italy grants the very same rights of family reunion to Italian citizens that they grant to EEA/Swiss nationals. There is no difference, except that Italians may benefit from more favourable conditions.

5) In the UK it is all other EEA/Swiss nationals that benefit from these more favourable conditions and not the UK nationals themselves.

There is a facility for British citizens to sponsor spouses and family members for settlement in the United Kingdom. http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk

[JAJ]

It's sad really, to see how the UK is distancing itself each time more from the EU with its strange policies. It is certainly gaining no friends this side of the Channel. Very often, when I say I'm English, people say: "Ah, but the UK is not in the EU!" I just hope people here don't start thinking it's a good idea to retaliate.

The reality is that even after almost 35 years of being "in Europe" (and all the propaganda since then) around one-third of the British people want out, and another third could easily be persuaded by a Prime Minister that was so minded.

It is regrettable that Britain's engagement with Europe has become such an unhappy experience, but that's been inevitable ever since the Maastricht treaty was put into effect.

[Richard66]

There is a facility for British citizens to sponsor spouses and family members for settlement in the United Kingdom

.

In Italy, where I live, visas in these cases are mandatory and free in case of husband/wife, minor children and family members being supported by the EEA national. Howerver, it is only automatic in the case of the two former.

There's a heap of a difference between a free visa and a visa that costs £500. There's a heap of a difference between a mandatory visa and a discretional one. There's a heap of a difference between producing a marriage/birth certificate to prove a family relationship and having to provide telephone bills, tenency agreeements, light bills, photographs and so on to prove this. Before our marriage we always telephoned using international cards, rechargeable mobiles or MSN and Skype. the tenency agreement is in my name, the bills are in the name of the landlady and photographs there are few. If tomorrow I had to produce any of the latter documents to prove I am actually married to my wife, I'd be hard pressed to do so, yet we are happily married and settled with no desire to settle in the UK, but only to go there now and then, as provided for by Directive 2004/38/EC.

In the new EEA FP form my wife would need to state the dates of birth of her parents. Asked if she knew them, she said she was not sure of the year her father was born. As he is now dead and she is not in Russia, it might prove hard to obtain that information. Oh mine, how negative this ommission would be.

As for the petition, the British Embassy in Rome has apparently forwarded the copy I sent them to the FCO. Good. Let them see at least someone is not taking it sitting down. If all continues this way I shall be sending my complaint to the European Commission on 3 December.

[JAJ]

In Italy, where I live, visas in these cases are mandatory and free in case of husband/wife, minor children and family members being supported by the EEA national. Howerver, it is only automatic in the case of the two former.

Perhaps Italy hasn't had the same problems with "marriages of convenience" that Britain has experienced. Hence the need for stricter requirements in the U.K.

Even for the EEA permit, members states are permitted to refuse if they believe the marriage is not genuine.

[Richard66]

The reality is that even after almost 35 years of being "in Europe" (and all the propaganda since then) around one-third of the British people want out, and another third could easily be persuaded by a Prime Minister that was so minded.

I am still to see a reasoned argument why the EU is so bad. All I hear are impassioned comments about the loss of "sovereignty", about Brussels bureaucrats and lack of accountability and so on. I am not aware any country has lost its independence after Maastricht and I fail to see that the conditions imposed by the EU any tougher than those imposed by any other international treaty.

I once wrote to Mr Murphy, the Minister for Europe and to Mr. Frattini, vice-president of the European Commission. Only one of them answered my, and I can guarantee you it was not Mr. Murphy.

It would be much more coinstructive, instead of opting out of everything, and distancing itself from the EU, to try to be its leading nation. This "opting-out" seems to be getting contagious and now every single country seems to want to opt-out of something: "I want the Euro but I don't want to give working rights to Bulgarians", I don't want the Euro but I want student quotas" and so on. We'll get to the point you won't be able to cross the border without having to study thoroughly how "EU" the country you're going to is.

One example I can think about are the chapters about labour that the UK opted-out of. It has always been hailed in the UK as a victory, but I've never seen any discussion about how labour is regulated in the UK and in the rest of the EU. Another is the charter of rights.

[Richard66]

Perhaps Italy hasn't had the same problems with "marriages of convenience" that Britain has experienced. Hence the need for stricter requirements in the U.K.

I can guarantee you marriages of convenience occur in Italy too and maybe on a larger scale than in the UK. For this the police usually check to see if the couple are actually married or not by comimg to look for them at their registered address.

This phenomenon of marriages of convenience does not entitle the state to abuse its powers and to consider every marriage between an EEA national and a non-EEA national to be a sham until proof to the contrary. All these rules has made any marriage between EEA and non extremely difficult, but they have served to turn me into a fighter.

[thsths]

This phenomenon of marriages of convenience does not entitle the state to abuse its powers and to consider every marriage between an EEA national and a non-EEA national to be a sham until proof to the contrary.

I agree, but how would you find marriages of convenience otherwise? Or maybe as a step towards that goal: how would you define a marriage of convenience?

Many European countries have the same problem, and the UK are just a bit ahead of the rest, I am afraid. For example, Germany is starting to crack down on arranged marriages now.

The Home Office is trying to do everything with paperwork (as usual). I agree that it does not feel very effective, because a shared address does not always indicate a genuine marriage. But at least the checks are not too intrusive. In other countries they come round and see how your beds are arranged... Although I do agree that a local institution is much better for assessing the situation than a central office in Crawly ever can be.