4EUFam and EU wide travel - the complete guide

[ca.funke]

(...)sorry - I accidentally deleted this post(...)

Main content was >>the letter<< the Maltese Embassy provided.

[ca.funke]

The aim of this list is to state which EU-embassies in Dublin mention 4EUFam (or the corresponding law) on their websites

Some links need to be corrected. If you have better links, please PM me to reduce clutter

I will give credit to those who PM me


Webpages of the embassies:

• 4EUFam Austria, Visa-site
• 4EUFam Belgium, Visa-site (At least the visa is free, 4EUFam is not mentioned.)

  If you are married to an EU citizen or one or both of your parents are EU citizens the visa is free of charge. Please provide the Embassy with your marriage - or birth certificate and your spouse’s passport or your parent(s) passport(s) as proof.

• 4EUFam Bulgaria, Visa-site
• 4EUFam Czech Republic, Visa-site
• 4EUFam Cyprus, Visa-site
• 4EUFam Denmark, Visa-site
• 4EUFam Estonia, Visa-site (last remaining problem is that "4EUFam"should be explicitly mentioned)

  Third country nationals who are family members of EU or EEA citizens may visit Estonia without a visa if they have a residence card of another EU member state. For more information: "Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the Union."

• 4EUFam Finland, Visa-site
• 4EUFam France, Visa-site
• 4EUFam Germany, Visa-site (see "Information on a Short Stay Visa (...for Family Members of EU-Citizens)" at the end of the page)

  If you are married to an EU-citizen and your Garda Card
  is a “4EUFamâ€

[megmog]

great experiment! and very helpful.

[ca.funke]

practical guide to family-members right to EU-wide travel

In order to (hopefully) reach your destination, I recommend carrying the following papers as a standard :

Any hints to improve this list welcome

• Both passports
• 4EUFam card (or your countries equivalent)
• (Original) marriage certificate or birth-certificates
  • This is to prove the EU-family-relation
• A printout of Directive 2004/38/EC (in English as well as the languages of destination)
  • This is to proof that the law exists, and to explain where the right of entry is derived from
  • Highlight the relevant passages for easier handling
• A printout of the Commission's website (in above languages)
• (update December 2010: The Commission changed their webpage, the >>new page<< is not worth printing anymore)
  • This website is putting the directive in simpler terms
  • Highlight the relevant passages for easier handling
• A letter by the Irish authorities, stating that the 4EUFam-card is the equivalent of an Irish re-entry-visa
  • This is needed to be allowed to board planes back home to Ireland, as most airline-staff believe that a sticker in the passport is the only allowable form of Visa to enter Ireland
  • For us, this was luckily mentioned in the letter we received, which asked us to pick up 4EUFam!

    As the holder of this particular Residence Card you will not be required to obtain an Irish re-entry visa...

[86ti]

At that stage they all had the possibility to answer, so I would categorise them into "no answer" / "positive" / "negative"...

What's the opinion about that?

Give them a week to 10 days to answer. Some embassies are simply slow.

[Christophe]

Just a couple of observations.

Slovenia described the situation exactly as it is, saying that we do not need a visa but as this is unfortunately not known to all mmigration officials we can (but do not have to) apply for a visa by providing both passports and the marriage-certificate (only), and the visa will then be issued, free of charge, after 2 days, just to avoid any possible complications on arrival.

Denmark: Your wife with a EU4Fam-card does not need a visa if she is travelling together with her husband (EU-citizen) [and] can somehow prove that she is joining up with her EU citizen husband there.

Unfortunately these rules are not always well known for immigration officers at borders and airports. However they have been informed of the rules. If there are troubles of unawarity from the immigration officers, it will therefore eventually not block entry. Therefore travel with the EU4Fam-card and a passport is sufficient for your trip.

It is possible (but not necessary) to issue a visa, which is free and can be made in a few days. The visas for Denmark are handled...

Among the EU countries, Slovenia and Denmark seem to get the gold medal so far. (Denmark took two goes to answer the question, but the answer is in writing; Slovenia were very prompt and rang up, but that is perhaps not as useful as an answer in writing...) Anyway, the answers from both of these countries' missions seem ideal: correctly stating as they do the legal situation but tempering their answer with common sense.

However, it seems extraordinary that the embassy of an EU country is able to state, truthfully, that immigration officers (not necessarily their own) don't always know the rules. Can this very point be used in the submission?

In response to your enquiry we would like to inform you that your wife would need a visa to visit Iceland.

Lebanese passport holders require a Schengen visa to visit Iceland. To verify this please visit the website of the Icelandic Directory of Immigration... As Iceland is not a member state of the EU the EU4 Fam card will not be sufficient to travel to Iceland so Schengen rules will have to apply.

To view exemptions from visa requirements to enter Iceland, please visit...

Schengen visas for Iceland are arranged through...

It further seems extraordinary that a non-EU country knows and is able to quote the rules for the EU countries when a large number of the EU countries get it wrong. Again, can this point be made in the submission?

[ashimashi]

good points Christophe!
Christian, I won't expect a reply from Spanish embassy, I've emailed them many times and they never replied, neither do they answer phone calls. I suggest you send them a letter (preferably registered) so they would be obliged to reply - and in that state your discontent with them not replying your emails - and send a CC to their ambassador too.

[ca.funke]

...I won't expect a reply from Spanish embassy...

From previous experience I am not expecting an answer from Italy, Spain and the UK, however of course hoping for one.

For the others who didn't reply yet I have no experience (Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Luxemburg and Portugal)

Greece I will ring, as their email keeps being full.

Does anyone have other email addresses?

[ashimashi]

UK: have always replied to my emails very promptly, sometimes within minutes, as they have farmed it out to some private company - usually clueless though...

Greece: I spoke to them on the phone in 2002, and at the time they were very helpful, informative and polite! Don't know if much has changed since!

Italy: They don't reply the email but if you persist enough you get on to them on the phone, or at least that's how it was in 2005.


Hope that helps! Good luck.

[86ti]

You may also want to confront embassies with different answers from their UK counterparts, e.g. Estonia. The webpages of the two Polish embassies say differently too.

The Hungarians have all embassies on their webpage of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, e.g. here the info from the London embassy which asks for visa like the english Finland page. The PDF on the Irish page wants visa too but mentions that border posts would issue visas to EEA family members (page 3). SImilar information used to be on the German language versions (DE, AT, CH) but interestingly, now they say no visa, e.g. Austria., likewise the english Portugal page, maybe others but I cannot check other language version unfortunately.

[86ti]

And here is the link http://www.czechembassy.org/servis/Soubor.asp?ID=28936 form the sticky in the Europe immigration forum which says no visa required for short stays. The web page appears to be from their Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

[ca.funke]

this post included the email to all embassies.

I moved it to the last entry, to "push" the topic...

[No Name]

Thank you "ca.funke" for your excellent work so far in fighting your rights under Directive 2004/38/EC.

I would like to inform you that your assumption that Norway and Iceland are not bound by Directive 2004/38/EC is incorrect. It is correct that Norway and Iceland are not EU member countries, however Norway and Iceland are EEA countries (the EEA agreement gives these countries access to the EU internal market and therefore these countries have to implement almost all EU directives into national law).

Directive 2004/38/EC became a part of the EEA agreement on the 7. of December 2007 (Decision of the EEA Joint Committee No 158/2007):
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 01:EN:HTML

You may wish to contact the embassies of Norway and Iceland to inform them about this!

Keep up the excellent work!

[MAKUSA]

...I won't expect a reply from Spanish embassy...

From previous experience I am not expecting an answer from Italy, Spain and the UK, however of course hoping for one.

For the others who didn't reply yet I have no experience (Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Luxemburg and Portugal)

Greece I will ring, as their email keeps being full.

Does anyone have other email addresses?

The usual suspects who think they are too big to toe the line, yet they shout and make noise about adhering to the rule of law. Useless lot.

[zuz]

Hi Christian,
I just received answer from Slovak embassy in Dublin.
They were very helpful. E-mail is quite long and it's basicly saying that Irish (and UK also) have never confirmed the cards can be used for this purpose (as they have issued the same cards before this directive). Slovakia is expecting an answer form them now and then they will go ahead with further steps and they will let know all the border control staff.
There is no need for non-eu spouses to show any kind of evidence - only passport and marriage cert is necessary and the visa are issued with no cost. They regret situation has not been cleared yet regarding to these cards. they will post updates on the website.

[porkpie]

This would be great as a 'sticky' thread

[86ti]

I just received answer from Slovak embassy in Dublin.
They were very helpful. E-mail is quite long and it's basicly saying that Irish (and UK also) have never confirmed the cards can be used for this purpose (as they have issued the same cards before this directive).

...

Also say these cards do not have som important symbols and are not notified by relevant institutions.

Both Ireland and the UK interpret the Directive in the way that they would only have to accept residence cards issued by themselves. And I suspect that's the root of all the trouble. Some countries obviously follow the children-in-the-sandbox attitude "If you don't do it, we won't do it either..." EDIT: On a second thought. Do we actually have information on how residence permits of Romania, Bulgaria, and Cyprus are treated by the Schengen countries?

I think the format of the residence permit should actually follow "Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002 of 13 June 2002 laying down a uniform format for residence permits for third-country nationals" but this is pre-2004 so don't know if that document applies here at all. But not issuing these cards in the right format is simply a failure of those countries.

[ca.funke]

I think the format of the residence permit should actually follow "Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002 of 13 June 2002 laying down a uniform format for residence permits for third-country nationals" but this is pre-2004 so don't know if that document applies here at all. But not issuing these cards in the right format is simply a failure of those countries.

Hi 86ti,

as I am no legal expert, can I naively ask the following:

2004/38/EC states:

Article 5
Right of entry
1.(...)
2.Family members who are not nationals of a Member State (...) For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

So if Ireland issues a "residence card as referred to in Article 10", and the only difference between "all other residence permits" and "EU-Family-permits" is the fact that "EU-Family-permits" in Ireland read "Stamp 4EUFam", then it's the obligation of all other member-states to be aware of this, or is it Irelands obligation to follow the uniform format you quoted?

In your quoted document 2004/38/EC is not mentioned, so I guess this is unrelated

[ca.funke]

I would like to inform you that your assumption that Norway and Iceland are not bound by Directive 2004/38/EC is incorrect.

- Thanks for that hint.

Unfortunately my capacities are a bit stretched right now, so I won't go into further detail about that.

If what you say is correct, I hope that the final email to all embassies will have some clarifying effect on this particular specialty as well.

Thanks a lot for this valuable hint!

For no particular reason I decided that D-Day will be Thursday, August 28th

(Email to all embassies, petition to parliament)

[ca.funke]

On a second thought. Do we actually have information on how residence permits of Romania, Bulgaria, and Cyprus are treated by the Schengen countries?

If they are issued for family-members of EU-citizens they SHOULD allow entry throughout the EU too.

Whoever is affected may want to launch a similar inquiry with all EU-embassies there.

I just checked the respective German websites and they (disappointingly) do not mention anything in this regard, at least I didn't find it. (Friday, August 22nd 2008)

German Embassy Bulgaria

German Embassy Romania

German Embassy Cyprus

In Cyprus at least they say:

• Familienmitglieder von EU-Staatsangehörigen müssen lediglich Ihren Pass, die Aufenthaltsgenehmigung für Zypern, Heirats- oder Geburtsurkunde zum Nachweis des Verwandtschaftsverhältnisses sowie den Pass und Passkopie des EU-Staatangehörigen vorlegen.
• Translation: Family-members of EU-citizens must only present their passport, the residence-permit for Cyprus, marriage or birth-certificate as proof of the family-tie, the passport and a copy of the passport of the EU-citizen.
• Visa-Free travel as per Directive 2004/38/EC is omitted.
• The fact that a visa for family-members is free (or at least should be) is omitted as well.

As a summary - none of the information given is complete or fully correct as of now.

I have to repeat my usual plea: All embassies should refer to one centralised page, which presents all relevant information correctly !! Why should each embassy create their own information about this, very little of which is correct?!

[No Name]

ca.funke wrote

If what you say is correct

It is correct that the EEA countries Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein are bound by Directive 2004/38/EC (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 01:EN:HTML)

The reason I posted my message was that ca.funke wrote:

The Icelandic answer is, in my opinion, the most impressive one overall, as it correctly describes the situation inside the EU, as well as how this affects Iceland.

However the answer ca.funke got from the Icelandic embassy was incorrect and therefore not impressive:

Lebanese passport holders require a Schengen visa to visit Iceland. To verify this please visit the website of the Icelandic Directory of Immigration... As Iceland is not a member state of the EU the EU4 Fam card will not be sufficient to travel to Iceland so Schengen rules will have to apply.

Even if Iceland is not a member of EU, Iceland is a member of the EEA and therefore bound by Directive 2004/38/EC so a EU4 Fam card should be sufficent to travel to Iceland if travelling with the EU national.

There is not much knowledge about the EEA agreement (Gives EEA countries "a EU membership "light" without voting rights": http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/eea/) so the EEA countries may therefore try to misinform people about their rights.

http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/eea/

The Agreement creating the European Economic Area (EEA) entered into force on 1 January 1994. It allows the EEA EFTA States (Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) to participate in the Internal Market on the basis of their application of Internal Market relevant acquis. All new relevant Community legislation is dynamically incorporated into the Agreement and thus applies throughout the EEA, ensuring the homogeneity of the internal market.

The EEA Agreement is concerned principally with the four fundamental pillars of the Internal Market, “the four freedoms", i.e. freedom of movement of goods, persons, services and capital. But also “flanking policiesâ€

[No Name]

I found a link that might be of interest regarding Norway and the EEA agreement: http://www.norway.org.uk/policy/europe/eea/eea.htm

The EEA Agreement is constantly evolving. New EU rules governing the internal market must be implemented in Norwegian law as they are adopted. This is done through decisions in the EEA Joint Committee, on which the EFTA countries and the EU Commission are both represented. All new rules that are adopted in the EEA Joint Committee must be incorporated into each country’s legislation.

However they seem not to practice what they preach as they have failed to implement Directive 2004/38/EC and demand a Schengen visa from family members of EU citizens.

I think a lot of people need to complain to the European Commission about EU and EEA countries that fail to implement Directive 2004/38/EC.

[archigabe]

Belgian Embassy,Dublin.

http://www.diplomatie.be/dublin/default ... =27&mnu=28

If you are married to an EU citizen or one or both of your parents are EU citizens the visa is free of charge. Please provide the Embassy with your marriage - or birth certificate and your spouse’s passport or your parent(s) passport(s) as proof.

[ca.funke]

Belgian Embassy,Dublin.

http://www.diplomatie.be/dublin/default ... =27&mnu=28

If you are married to an EU citizen or one or both of your parents are EU citizens the visa is free of charge. Please provide the Embassy with your marriage - or birth certificate and your spouse’s passport or your parent(s) passport(s) as proof.

Our visit to Belgium over the weekend was a formal catastrophe: The 4EUFam card was practically unknown on arrival in Brussels. After 5 minutes someone in the backoffice knew about it. Passport got stamped anyway.

Return: Nearly didn't manage to board the plane, as check-in staff wanted to see the Irish Visa (They were expecting a sticker-type Visa in the passport). Passport got stamped again (although this shouldn't have happened I'm happy we've officially "left").

On Irish entry my wife was asked what she does here... Eeergh, as the 4EUFam-card may indicate: Live here?!

Apart from that the weekend was nice

[archigabe]

EU4Fam card was practically unknown on arrival in Brussels. After 5 minutes someone in the backoffice knew about it.

Had the same experience in Frankfurt,Germany.