4EUFam and EU wide travel - the complete guide

Post by **ca.funke** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:52 pm

Hi 86ti,

thanks for this valuable input

Reading this makes my blood boil.

As per my first post in this thread, the European Commission describes the current situation, which is binding and unambiguous law, >>here<<:

YOU MIGHT BE REQUIRED TO HAVE AN ENTRY VISA

Possession of the valid residence card, (...) issued by any Member State, exempts you from the visa obligation not only in the Member State which issued the residence card, but in all Member States.

Thus what the Finnish embassy is writing here:

Finnish Embassy/London, 13/11/2008 wrote:[...] At the moment Â´visa freedomÂ´ ( holder of EEA Family Member Sticker) is only valid if one is moving ( in order to work ) to Finland with an EU -spouse or travelling to Finland in other than Tourist/ Holiday Purposes with an EU spouse. It is still recommended to hold a visa that is why it is instructed on our website too. [...]

is directly contradicting the Commissions' official guideline and -simply- wrong.

2004/38/EC is always applicable for all non-EU-family-members of an EU-national if

The non-EU-family-member in question is living together with the EU-family-member in another memberstate than the state from where the EU-family-member is from OR
- in this case it is valid all over the EU, including the state of origin of the EU-citizen
The same people are travelling inside the EU, but outside the member-state of origin of the EU-person.

In other words, the only (not reasonable but legal) cases where you cannot claim rights from 2004/38/EC is when:

an EU-citizen lives with a non-EU-family-member in the state where the EU-member is from
- result is that you may have to go through the more scrutinizing way of getting a residence or work permit for the non-EU-part OR
You live outside the EU and want to visit your country of origin
- result is, you may need a visa, unlike for the rest of the EU
Surinder-Singh cases, but that's a speciality not worth going into right now

The Finnish Embassy seems to change their mind sometimes: When I asked them (see first page of this thread) they replied:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: xyz@formin.fi
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Subject: FW: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Mr.,
Thank you for your message. The EU4Fam card is sufficient, your wife
does not need a visa to enter Finland in this case.

Hope you will have a nice stay in Finland.

Best regards,
Embassy of Finland
Dublin

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:31 pm

Christian, you may be interested in the following page
http://www.bka.gv.at/DocView.axd?CobId=33397

The case is mostly concerned with the Metock and Sahin cases but read the last sentence in the first paragraph in 'Zusammenfassung der Entscheidungen'.

You may remember that I got a positive response from the Austrian MFA via SOLVIT but after I found last December that the web page of the embassy in London is still wrong I tried to contact them. No answer as of yet. I asked SOLVIT again to clarify and they contacted the embassy last Monday. No response yet.

Interestingly, SOLVIT also contacted the Austrian BMI (that's the Ministry of the Interior) who came almost instantly back to them and offered me to inform AUA and the boarder police (don't ask me why they need to be informed about an individual case) if I told them when I wanted to fly. The BMI also promised to contact the MFA about the webpage.

I also tried to get a response from the embassy in Dublin but was ignored too.

robby1 · Post by **robby1** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:57 pm

hi guys,
i am flying to berlin next month with my spouse and i am in possestion of eu-fam4 card,does anyone of u have idea about berlin immigration, hope they are aware of regulation ,but last time i flew to munich they did't have any clue about this regulation and we were in immigration office for more then an hour ,after they said sorry that they did't know about this rule ..should i ring to berlin airport immigration before i leave to remind them ..

foreigndub · Post by **foreigndub** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:49 pm

I am an EU national (Portugal) my spouse is non-EU with a eu-fam4 card.

Travelled to Weese in Germany in Feb 2009. No visa, no problems, straight through.

Travelling to Portugal in April, called the Embassy and was told she would need a visa.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:01 pm

foreigndub wrote:Travelling to Portugal in April, called the Embassy and was told she would need a visa.

Hmm.. I don't like the look of this either..

Do you plan to get a visa for your wife, or not?

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:37 pm

benifa wrote:
foreigndub wrote:Travelling to Portugal in April, called the Embassy and was told she would need a visa.
Hmm.. I don't like the look of this either..

Do you plan to get a visa for your wife, or not?

The embassy in London says something about not needing a visa if a valid residence permit is held just like the Portuguese implementation of the directive. But it is not clear what residence permits would be considered valid (do they use the UK interpretation?). Wonder what Mr. Barroso would have to say about this?

Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:49 pm

foreigndub wrote:I am an EU national (Portugal) my spouse is non-EU with a eu-fam4 card.

Travelled to Weese in Germany in Feb 2009. No visa, no problems, straight through.

Travelling to Portugal in April, called the Embassy and was told she would need a visa.

As Portugal originally never replied, I sent them my first email again today.

Will report how it goes.

Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:59 pm

ca.funke wrote:As Portugal originally never replied, I sent them my first email again today.

Will report how it goes.

The (incorrect) answer came faster than I though:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: xyz@dublin.dgaccp.pt
Date: Mon, Mar 9, 2009
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Sir,

With reference to your e mail dated 9th March instant, your wife needs a visa to enter Portugal although she is in possession of an EU4-Fam card, which is free of cost being married to an EU citizen. As the approval from Portugal and other Schengen Partners takes approximately 2 to 3 weeks, we would appreciate if she could apply at her earliest convenience. You can contact our Web Site www.embassyportugal.ie or call me on tel. number 01-abcdefg for further information.

...

Regards
xxx
Chancellor

I followed up with my "usual" second email, as per first post, asking if she really needs a visa, and what documents are needed...

...any replies will be posted here, of course.

Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:53 pm

ca.funke wrote:I followed up with my "usual" second email, as per first post, asking if she really needs a visa, and what documents are needed...

...any replies will be posted here, of course.

The (incorrect) second reply came, again, much faster than I thought:

---------- Original message ----------
From: xyz@dublin.dgaccp.pt
Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2009
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Sir,

Basically all we need is the Schengen visa form duly filled, proof of the flight reservations, passport, residence card, marriage certificate and the original passport of the spouse along with a coloured photo.

Thanks n regards,
xyz

As I live in ZÃ¼rich now all of this has a certain irony to it. Anyways, followed up as follows:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2009
Subject: Re: Visa necessary?
To: xyz@dublin.dgaccp.pt

Dear Mr. xyz,

actually, we're not planning to go to Portugal - my wife and me have been to Faro a while ago and it was fabulous!

The reason for my email was that, a while ago, I conducted a survey about Schengen-embassies in Dublin and analysed the different answers.

At the time I must have used an incorrect email for the Portugese embassy, at least I never got a reply.

You can see the complete survey here:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=30020

At the end I summarised my findings into a petition to the European Parliament, which is attached. (Can be found in this Forum too...)

If you study the given link you will see that, actually, the 4EUFam-card allows entry into the Schengen-Area under certain conditions, however all embassies take a different stance.

If you want to investigate further, please confirm with your ministry of foreign affairs, study the given link and/or talk to other Schengen-embassies in Dublin... you will be surprised

Personally, my wife and me wanted to be able to visit my parents in Belgium whenever we please. The continuous hassle we were exposed to in this regard prompted us to move away from Ireland, so we now actually live in Switzerland (which is inside Schengen). I just sent this email as I am still somewhat active in the above forum.

Thanks for your prompt reply anyawy and of course I'd be happy to receive additional feedback, if you have any.

Regards and all the best, Christian

Post by **archigabe** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:45 pm

Switzerland-Visa needed',
but according to the application form

"If you are married to an EU/EFTA citizen or one or both of your parents are EU/EFTA citizens, the visa is free of charge. Please provide the Embassy also with your marriage- or birth certificate and your spouse's passport or your parent(s) passport(s) as proof"

http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/rep ... /visa.html

and questions marked with' * ' on the visa application form do not need to be answered.

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/etc/medialib/da ... E%20FR.pdf

Post by **archigabe** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:00 pm

Well' what do you know...I met a little dictator at the swiss embassy who insisted that he doen't care if the application form says no details on hotels,flights,insurance required for E.U spouses, we have to provide all those details if we wanted to visit Switzerland.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:52 am

The problem with dealing with swiss "little dictators" is that ECJ court judgements do not apply. They are part of Schengen but not part of the EU.

It used to be Switzerland was a good place to go on vacation because they issued visas nicely and quickly. Maybe it is time to explore the rest of Europe again.

Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:52 am

archigabe wrote:Well' what do you know...I met a little dictator at the swiss embassy who insisted that he doen't care if the application form says no details on hotels,flights,insurance required for E.U spouses, we have to provide all those details if we wanted to visit Switzerland.

Hi Archigabe,

during my move to CH I established contact with a very nice and understanding person in the immigration office in Switzerland.

If you want I can contact him on your behalf? (PM me if you want me to, maybe you still have my usual email?)

Regards from currently Mumbai, Christian

astraclub · Post by **astraclub** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:32 am

i got 4Eu FAM for my wife and will try now. I am an Irish citizen (Previously Indian) and have Irish pasport, I see a problem with our own GNIB card, if you turn it over, it says:
IT IS NOT AN IDENTITY CARD
why is this not been an identity card by IRISH national.
I was refused entry at paris airport to go out in night as my flight was late (March09-Than i had indian passport),
The immigration office rudley says --it is nothing, not even irish govt offical card by showing it from the back
errrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh
anyway, situation is changed now and will see what happen at bilabao.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:06 am

astraclub wrote:i got 4Eu FAM for my wife and will try now. I am an Irish citizen (Previously Indian) and have Irish pasport, I see a problem with our own GNIB card, if you turn it over, it says:
IT IS NOT AN IDENTITY CARD
why is this not been an identity card by IRISH national.
I was refused entry at paris airport to go out in night as my flight was late (March09-Than i had indian passport),
The immigration office rudley says --it is nothing, not even irish govt offical card by showing it from the back
errrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh
anyway, situation is changed now and will see what happen at bilabao.

I am a bit confused. Did you have a problem in Paris with a 4EUFam? A GNIB card is, I understand, something very different than a Residence Card (which in Ireland is called 4EUFam).

If you are Irish and your wife has a 4EUFam, that means you most likely worked in another EU country. Can I ask where you worked?

Post by **ca.funke** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:20 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I am a bit confused. Did you have a problem in Paris with a 4EUFam? A GNIB card is, I understand, something very different than a Residence Card (which in Ireland is called 4EUFam).

If you are Irish and your wife has a 4EUFam, that means you most likely worked in another EU country. Can I ask where you worked?

Hi Directive,

the 4EUFam Card is also a "GNIB-Card". ItÂ´s just that the law is unclear about how it should look like:

Article 10
Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called â€˜Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizenâ€™ no later than six
months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued
immediately.

Most countries (all Schengen countries) interpret this in such a way as the actual text "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" has to appear on the card.

Ireland and the UK ignore this by calling the card "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" on the application papers, but they are actually marked 4EUFam or similar, with the actual text not appearing.

Well, gramatically the sentence in the law does not say it has to appear on the card. All this adds to the confusion.

However: The 4EUFam (="GNIB Stamp 4EUFam") card is the card as per the above Article, but nowhere mentions "Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen"

If you want I can prepare a scan of the card, so you can see it.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:27 pm

Hi Christian!

ca.funke wrote:If you want I can prepare a scan of the card, so you can see it.

Here's one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stamp4EUFam.jpg

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:54 pm

ca.funke wrote:... the UK ignore this by calling the card "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" on the application papers, but they are actually marked 4EUFam or similar, with the actual text not appearing.

But quite close. And it actullay makes more sense as the Directive applies to the whole EEA.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... rd_mod.png

Post by **ca.funke** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:05 pm

cool,

thanks for the uploads - I just started scanning ours... Guess you took the hassle away for me - thanks !

The UK-one is actually better than I thought.

Thanks again, rgds from Switzerland

microlab · Post by **microlab** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:47 pm

Recently we were going through Abu Dhabi. Immigration guy kept looking at my wifes passport, pointing at the stamp and asking questions. In all fairness to him I think STAMP looks primitive with all that rollerball pen writing and not a single word what is for and who for, i.e EU family,work permit etc...End of the rant !

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:30 am

microlab wrote:Recently we were going through Abu Dhabi. Immigration guy kept looking at my wifes passport, pointing at the stamp and asking questions. In all fairness to him I think STAMP looks primitive with all that rollerball pen writing and not a single word what is for and who for, i.e EU family,work permit etc...End of the rant !

I'd love to know why they insist on stamping..

a) Absolutely anywhere they like in the passport (not in order / on correct pages).
b) Over the top of other stamps.

microlab · Post by **microlab** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:10 pm

I'd love to know why they insist on stamping..

Maybe because if person was away for prolonged period of time 1-2 years he/she should reapply...I think I read somewhere..So this way they kind of know...

Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:44 pm

microlab wrote:
I'd love to know why they insist on stamping..

Maybe because if person was away for prolonged period of time 1-2 years he/she should reapply...I think I read somewhere..So this way they kind of know...

In order to really trace absence, they'd need an exit-stamp also.

Otherwise, if I uninterruptedly enjoy the beauty of Ireland for 2 years and then go to London for a weekend, they "kind of know" that I've been away for 2 years...?

That's a real big "kind-of" - plus in the case of family-members of EU-citizens it's illegal (and irrelevant).

Plus, what if the evil foreigner dares to get a new passport...? No stamps anymore.

God forbid

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:51 pm

microlab wrote:
I'd love to know why they insist on stamping..

Maybe because if person was away for prolonged period of time 1-2 years he/she should reapply...I think I read somewhere..So this way they kind of know...

Ok, but I actually meant it as:

I'd love to know why they insist on stamping absolutely anywhere they like in the passport (not in order / on correct pages).

<and>

I'd love to know why they insist on stamping over the top of other stamps.

microlab · Post by **microlab** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:58 pm

plus in the case of family-members of EU-citizens it's illegal

If I leave to work let`s say for 2 years outside EU would my wife loose her residence entitlement ?! I am sure there is a specific law in a case of prolonged absence,unfortunately could not find it.Any idea?!

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