Submitted Online Form today - have I applied to early?

ilovethebeatles wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:12 am

You search for the document titled "Indefinite leave to remain: calculating continuous period in UK" and look for Page 9. But I copy it here for you. It looks even better because they can consider any date up to 28 days after the data of application.

Calculating the specified continuous period
Applicants can submit a settlement application up to 28 days before they would reach the end of the specified period. You must calculate the relevant qualifying period by counting backward from whichever of the following is most beneficial to the applicant:
• the date of application
• the date of decision
• any date up to 28 days after the date of application

Just some clarification.

My wife entered the country on 26/12/2013

Looking at the three options above:

1. the date of application. This I did yesterday, 12/11/2018
2. the date of decision. Whenever we do the appointment plus day or two
3. any date up to 28 days after the date of application. So, that's number 1 plus 28 days, 10/12/2018

Big question, do these dates have to be 5 years after entry or 28 days before 5th anniversary? That's not very clear from what is written in the rules.

If it's the first, surely it's enough for us to arrange an appointment after 26th December so therefore any decision would necessarily be after 5 years of UK entry and we would be ok.

does this make sense?

I did not have experience with your situation but what I tell is from reading the guideline and others' experience shared in this forum. So:

Your wife is eligible to apply from 28/11/2018.
Date of decision: if you book for biometrics taken on or after 28/11/2018, it is fine.
Any date up to 28 days after the date of application: it will be until 10/12/2018, so it covers 28/11/2018 i.e. you should be fine.

My understanding is you have not booked an appointment, so better to book it on 28/11 or after -> you should be fine.

ilovethebeatles wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:14 pm

I did not have experience with your situation but what I tell is from reading the guideline and others' experience shared in this forum. So:

Your wife is eligible to apply from 28/11/2018.
Date of decision: if you book for biometrics taken on or after 28/11/2018, it is fine.
Any date up to 28 days after the date of application: it will be until 10/12/2018, so it covers 28/11/2018 i.e. you should be fine.

My understanding is you have not booked an appointment, so better to book it on 28/11 or after -> you should be fine.

I notice the PDF you referred to earlier has a list of ILR categories that are covered by the document. SET(M) does not seem to be listed there - this is the category we are going for. I wonder if it's different and where I would find that out.

for those following this thread, I have posted an update in another thread:

indefinite-leave-to-remain/premium-serv ... l#p1704044

so at the moment, it seems like I will most likely cancel the application. The PDF referred to in this thread (talking about appointment date, appointment + 28 days, decision date) does not refer to SET(M), that category is not listed at the start of that PDF and I've read elsewhere on these boards how marriage visas are treated differently and I guess this is another example of it.

What I may do is push for a refund due to having been given woefully misleading information on the visa helpline, the day that I submitted my form. I have the time and duration of the call and the name of the person who I spoke to and I know that all calls are recorded.

My guess, though, is that somewhere in the fine print of the visa website is a disclaimer stating that they are not responsible for advice given over the phone, so I don't hold out much hope for that either.

I've done nothing but read obscure gov.uk webpages and PDF's for 48 hours

I've found what I consider to be the key paragraph in this PDF:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... n-v1.0.pdf

which I've quoted from before in this thread. The paragraph says (not very clearly)

The date of application for online applications is the date it is submitted via the online process. This date of application applies even where the applicant subsequently chooses to, or is asked to, attend an in person appointment.

When applying online, an applicant can choose to make an appointment at a premium service centre to submit their proof of identity, passport photos and supporting evidence in person. An applicant may also be requested by the Home Office to attend an appointment. Any appointment must be usually made and attended within 45 business days of submission of the application online.

The date of application for an in person application is the date it is submitted in person.

I've read elsewhere on this forum claims, from moderators too, that the premium service appointment date is the application date.

But reading that paragraph above.

The red sentence says online applications count the form submission date as the appointment date.
The blue sentence (which is the one I find most ambiguous) says this is true even if the applicant then chooses to attend an in-person appointment.
But then we have the green sentence, which uses the wording "in person application" (not "appointment")

My two questions:

1. what exactly is the green sentence referring to?

2. What is the difference between the green and the blue, between an in-person appointment and an in-person application?

If I decide to cancel my application, are there limits to when I can make a new application? Would I be able to send another online application 2 weeks later?

Lacking clear black and white answers on here, I've sought advice elsewhere

the guidance does appear to be somewhat contradictory and the hotline support is sometimes not accurate, in my experience.

Based on our experience, the person who considers your wife’s application during the premium service appointment has discretion to consider the application either from the date of the online application or the date of the appointment, depending on which is most beneficial to the applicant. Obviously, in your wife’s case, this would be the date of the appointment.

Further to this, my understanding of the guidance as quoted in your email is that it depends on the purpose of your online application. Therefore if you are making an online application with the purpose of booking the premium service appointment, then the relevant date is the date of that appointment. If the online application is made with the intention of then providing the supporting documents by post, to be considered by the Home Office upon receipt, then the relevant date would be the date of the online submission.

Of course if you are concerned you can withdraw and request a refund, but based on my understanding of your situation and the immigration guidelines, I believe they will use the date of the appointment – although I cannot say this with absolute certainty.

(all emphasis present in original email)

This is a professional immigration advisor and she's as unsure as anyone about this issue.

I am leaning towards cancelling because we don't want to risk more dire consequences such as being put on 10-yr route or things of that type. The only thing stopping us cancelling now is this question I asked above about whether we would be limited at all about immediately re-applying. I saw a post which referred to a 30-day wait to re-apply:

british-citizenship/application-withdra ... ml#p964793

I have noticed that there has been very little input from the moderators of this forum regarding this whole date issue. Does this reflect the level of uncertainty there is around this issue, particularly with regards to the new systems that have been put in place?

oldmankensey wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:57 am

Lacking clear black and white answers on here, I've sought advice elsewhere

the guidance does appear to be somewhat contradictory and the hotline support is sometimes not accurate, in my experience.

Based on our experience, the person who considers your wife’s application during the premium service appointment has discretion to consider the application either from the date of the online application or the date of the appointment, depending on which is most beneficial to the applicant. Obviously, in your wife’s case, this would be the date of the appointment.

Further to this, my understanding of the guidance as quoted in your email is that it depends on the purpose of your online application. Therefore if you are making an online application with the purpose of booking the premium service appointment, then the relevant date is the date of that appointment. If the online application is made with the intention of then providing the supporting documents by post, to be considered by the Home Office upon receipt, then the relevant date would be the date of the online submission.

Of course if you are concerned you can withdraw and request a refund, but based on my understanding of your situation and the immigration guidelines, I believe they will use the date of the appointment – although I cannot say this with absolute certainty.

(all emphasis present in original email)

This is a professional immigration advisor and she's as unsure as anyone about this issue.

I am leaning towards cancelling because we don't want to risk more dire consequences such as being put on 10-yr route or things of that type. The only thing stopping us cancelling now is this question I asked above about whether we would be limited at all about immediately re-applying. I saw a post which referred to a 30-day wait to re-apply:

british-citizenship/application-withdra ... ml#p964793

I have noticed that there has been very little input from the moderators of this forum regarding this whole date issue. Does this reflect the level of uncertainty there is around this issue, particularly with regards to the new systems that have been put in place?

So the advisor has said exactly the same as we have said!!!!

Not sure why you think the moderators (all 6 of the current active mods who have passed through the immigration journey years ago) would have any more or additional advice on the new service vs any other member posting their experience. We do not work for HO!!

So you agree that there is nothing clear in the rules or guidance? I have now heard from 3 immigration solicitors this morning and they are unanimous that the current situation is very ambiguous and that there is no clear guidance as to this date question.

I repeat what is included in the guidance:

The date of application for online applications is the date it is submitted via the online process. This date of application applies even where the applicant subsequently chooses to, or is asked to, attend an in person appointment.

Well I have just spoken to the UKVISA helpline, the lady on the phone has been very clear that the online application date is the relevant date for ILR LR and it has to be within the 28 days of completing ten years. I haven't received a response on my email query yet but hopefully I will receive it soon.

One thing I want to point out is that when completing the online application it asks you specifically how long have you been in UK. Now if someone like me who completes his 9 years and 11 months only in December tries to submit an application and book an appointment now in November has to write 9 years 10 months on the online application which could be deemed as ineligible to apply for ILR LR later. From this I think its better to submit the online application form only once you hit the 9 years 11 month period of continuous residence. On the other hand it was specifically written on the GOV website on the link below that the premium service centre appointment has to be within the 28 days of completing the qualifying period. Also as others have shared the paragraph from guidance the caseworker needs to count whichever is better for applicant from either the application date or decision date. Now as its not crystal clear with the new service and there are conflicting opinions and advice I think it depends on the individual circumstances if someone needs to submit an application earlier in advance to make sure to get the appointment on time. As for me its not that urgent so probably I will wait until I complete the qualifying period in December before submitting the online application, paying the fees and booking for the appointment. I hope with the new service centres in operation hopefully there will be more flexibility in booking an appointment at the end of December to start of January 2019.

https://www.gov.uk/ukvi-premium-service ... ligibility
If you’re applying for settlement, your premium service appointment must be:
at least 48 hours after your Life in the UK test
within 28 days of you completing your qualifying period

Yes, that reference is from this PDF, page 9

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... .0-EXT.pdf

and SET(M) is not listed in the relevant categories at the top of that document, so unfortunately I can't rely on that. I can't find an equivalent paragraph for SET(M).

As you say, those on the visa helpline are saying "online submission date is application date" pretty much as one now.

I spoke with an immigration lawyer today. Summary below:

1. There is no clear guidance by UKVI about this precise situation but she leans towards "online submission date is to be considered the application date". There does seem to be more of a consensus on this board in the last day or so that this is the case.

2. Seeing as we are just going across to a new system and she knows of cases in the past where online submission dates have been crossed out and substituted for appointment dates on forms, her conclusion is that it will ultimately come down to "caseworker discretion".

3. There is no additional risk from being rejected. We would be able to re-apply for ILR SET(M) immediately afterwards.

4. They will provide me with a cover letter citing:
a. The large body of ambiguous and even contradictory guidance regarding this question within UKVI content.
b. The appalling advice I was given on the helpline before I took the decision to submit. We would include all the data about the call (name of operative, time and duration of call, etc).
c. The date of the appointment itself will be well within the 28-day window in which an application could be made. (and that this was acceptable under the old system).

I said I would sleep on things and decide by Monday what to do.

Number 3 for me is important. As it stands, we either 100% lose the 3k if we cancel or we might/could/probably lose the 3k if we apply and are rejected. 100% vs. 80% is a simple decision to make.

I will continue to follow discussions on here before we make our decision early next week. I'd be interested to hear what others are getting from representatives and what decisions they are making.

oldmankensey wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:21 pm

I spoke with an immigration lawyer today. Summary below:

1. There is no clear guidance by UKVI about this precise situation but she leans towards "online submission date is to be considered the application date". There does seem to be more of a consensus on this board in the last day or so that this is the case.

2. Seeing as we are just going across to a new system and she knows of cases in the past where online submission dates have been crossed out and substituted for appointment dates on forms, her conclusion is that it will ultimately come down to "caseworker discretion".

3. There is no additional risk from being rejected. We would be able to re-apply for ILR SET(M) immediately afterwards.

4. They will provide me with a cover letter citing:
a. The large body of ambiguous and even contradictory guidance regarding this question within UKVI content.
b. The appalling advice I was given on the helpline before I took the decision to submit. We would include all the data about the call (name of operative, time and duration of call, etc).
c. The date of the appointment itself will be well within the 28-day window in which an application could be made. (and that this was acceptable under the old system).

I said I would sleep on things and decide by Monday what to do.

Number 3 for me is important. As it stands, we either 100% lose the 3k if we cancel or we might/could/probably lose the 3k if we apply and are rejected. 100% vs. 80% is a simple decision to make.

I will continue to follow discussions on here before we make our decision early next week. I'd be interested to hear what others are getting from representatives and what decisions they are making.

Yeah I'm pretty much on the same boat, I completed the form and paid on the 2nd of november
but I'm only going to be eligible(my 28 days before grant date will be 25th of December) in December, but my final date to book an appoint and send biometrics is 4th of January, my plan is to book between 27th December and 4th of January, I'm uploading my documents as I organise them, and expect the case worker to be reasonable and use my appointment date and not 2nd of november(submission date).

Avy18 wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:34 pm

Spoke to UKBA call center not sopera steria.
If you say I will not cancel. I was very much assured by a lady over the phone that I will get my money back in 5 working days and I can re apply once again in 48 hours of cancelation.

The UKVI 'helpline' is staffed by the outsourced agency Sopra Steria employees, who have proved to be seriously lacking in knowledge of immigration matters. The 'advice' given can't be relied on.

By the way, the UKBA were disbanded some years ago, due to being 'unfit for purpose' and is now the UKVI.

We thought about things at the weekend and have decided:

1. to go ahead with the application, not to cancel it. The main reason for this being our understanding that a rejection won't affect our chances of immediately re-applying.

2. AGAINST the cover letter. We might pen something simple ourselves, but I think we're just going to go in with fingers crossed. The reasons for this are quite complicated but overall, my wife was conscious of drawing attention to the problem and getting HO defensive with any brand of accusations regarding their helpline and their guidance.

so on a wing and a prayer it is...

oldmankensey wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:17 am

We thought about things at the weekend and have decided:

1. to go ahead with the application, not to cancel it. The main reason for this being our understanding that a rejection won't affect our chances of immediately re-applying.

2. AGAINST the cover letter. We might pen something simple ourselves, but I think we're just going to go in with fingers crossed. The reasons for this are quite complicated but overall, my wife was conscious of drawing attention to the problem and getting HO defensive with any brand of accusations regarding their helpline and their guidance.

so on a wing and a prayer it is...

Best of luck, I believe you should be fine. Keep us updated.

oldmankensey wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:17 am

We thought about things at the weekend and have decided:

1. to go ahead with the application, not to cancel it. The main reason for this being our understanding that a rejection won't affect our chances of immediately re-applying.

2. AGAINST the cover letter. We might pen something simple ourselves, but I think we're just going to go in with fingers crossed. The reasons for this are quite complicated but overall, my wife was conscious of drawing attention to the problem and getting HO defensive with any brand of accusations regarding their helpline and their guidance.

so on a wing and a prayer it is...

There is an example of succesful application and I strongly feel you would be fine,
However, hats off to you for your searches and readings.

oldmankensey wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:17 am

We thought about things at the weekend and have decided:

1. to go ahead with the application, not to cancel it. The main reason for this being our understanding that a rejection won't affect our chances of immediately re-applying.

2. AGAINST the cover letter. We might pen something simple ourselves, but I think we're just going to go in with fingers crossed. The reasons for this are quite complicated but overall, my wife was conscious of drawing attention to the problem and getting HO defensive with any brand of accusations regarding their helpline and their guidance.

so on a wing and a prayer it is...

I am on the same situation
My 5 year anniversary is Dec 22
Applied online Nov 19 - as i want to book an appointment
My eligibility is Nov 23
I booked premium service for Nov 28

I received an email Nov 20th indicating "Thank you for your application to the Home Office. Your application has been received and is being considered." This of course created a panic in the house as we are thinking we did applied few days too early!!!!

We are very confuse with the new system! As we thought the date of premium service is the date of application

Our decision is to go ahead with the application and proceed with the premium service on the 28th Nov.

I can understand the panic people are undergoing here due to this date confusion. Though when I applied early this year, I submitted my application and secured an appointment for 10th May on 4th April itself, whereas I was eligible for ILR on 9th May.

And as per my understanding the rules are still the same, only the system has been changed. I would suggest do not panic, and even if they do not accept that now they will either need to refund your fees and let you apply again at later date or will accept it and process your case (with some delay may be). Either case, you are not going to lose anything. So, no point being anxious and frustrated, everyone including government knows it is a new system and such situations will arise and they would be happy to handle such instances generously. No one is there to rob you like that. (This doesn't mean to start a debate of so high visa fees).

Keep calm and discuss with local MP if you want to do something in parallel.

Morning Everyone,

Just to update everyone I have just received an official reply from UKVI front end services on my query for application date and appointment date which I think is more clearer now. I hope its helpful.

Good Morning

Appointments cannot be booked until the online application has been completed. All customers will be able to attend the new service within 5 working days.

You should not apply before you are eligible as the date of application is considered to be the day you submit your online application.

Many Thanks

Front End Services Team

Please can someone share the email id of Home Office's frond end service team?

we have our Premium appointment on Friday and we will be bringing up the subject of the application date with them there, hoping they can at least make a call and see the situation.

If we find out then that no, it's not a valid application for the date reason, we will request a withdrawal of the application and, according to UKVI's own guidance, a withdrawal of an application that is not valid due to being outside the correct time window can get a full refund.

Request to withdraw an application that is not yet valid – applicant has extant leave at time of request to withdraw

If a migrant with extant leave requests the withdrawal of their application before they have fulfilled the validation requirements, you must notify them using ICD.5142, that their application has been withdrawn but that, at the point of withdrawal, the application was not yet valid. The applicant’s extant leave will continue. You must refund the application fee

I have almost zero expectation that this will actually work, but hey, you gotta dream!

JulianaCG wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:21 am

oldmankensey wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:17 am

We thought about things at the weekend and have decided:

1. to go ahead with the application, not to cancel it. The main reason for this being our understanding that a rejection won't affect our chances of immediately re-applying.

2. AGAINST the cover letter. We might pen something simple ourselves, but I think we're just going to go in with fingers crossed. The reasons for this are quite complicated but overall, my wife was conscious of drawing attention to the problem and getting HO defensive with any brand of accusations regarding their helpline and their guidance.

so on a wing and a prayer it is...

I am on the same situation
My 5 year anniversary is Dec 22
Applied online Nov 19 - as i want to book an appointment
My eligibility is Nov 23
I booked premium service for Nov 28

I received an email Nov 20th indicating "Thank you for your application to the Home Office. Your application has been received and is being considered." This of course created a panic in the house as we are thinking we did applied few days too early!!!!

We are very confuse with the new system! As we thought the date of premium service is the date of application

Our decision is to go ahead with the application and proceed with the premium service on the 28th Nov.

I am on the same situation I have applied for ILR.
Service Type: New Premium service
Date of online application: 28 Nov 2018
Day when my Qualifying period starts (i.e. 28 days before I complete total 5 years): 11th Dec 2018.
Date of appointment: 13 Dec 2018

oldmankensey wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:20 pm

we have our Premium appointment on Friday and we will be bringing up the subject of the application date with them there, hoping they can at least make a call and see the situation.

If we find out then that no, it's not a valid application for the date reason, we will request a withdrawal of the application and, according to UKVI's own guidance, a withdrawal of an application that is not valid due to being outside the correct time window can get a full refund.

Request to withdraw an application that is not yet valid – applicant has extant leave at time of request to withdraw

If a migrant with extant leave requests the withdrawal of their application before they have fulfilled the validation requirements, you must notify them using ICD.5142, that their application has been withdrawn but that, at the point of withdrawal, the application was not yet valid. The applicant’s extant leave will continue. You must refund the application fee

I have almost zero expectation that this will actually work, but hey, you gotta dream!

Best of luck.. Can you please update your application outcome.

nothing much to report really. Went to London Premium Centre today. Wife did biometrics and all our uploaded files were sent off. The staff at Sopra Steria have no real knowledge of these things and no power, they are admin staff, nothing more nothing less.

So not getting any sort of reliable answer out of them, we included a very short cover letter with our application, in which we apologised if we applied early, that we were led to believe the appointment date was the important one, but that if it was an issue, that we would like to withdraw the application and get a refund. We referenced the PDF I quoted above:

indefinite-leave-to-remain/submitted-on ... l#p1709997

We'll see what happens. We don't expect to hear much until Tues/Wed at the earliest, we will update here of course. I have no more than a c.30% expectation of success, my wife is more optimistic at 50%. My main concern is getting the 1st fee back and re-applying again, I do NOT want to spend 6k on this circus!