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Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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VMarshal
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by VMarshal » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:43 pm

water_tank1 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:36 am
According to the current citizenship application form 8 and on closer inspection I see differences from Non-EU citizens based on 5 years residence and people applying on the basis of an Irish nation ....


" If you are a non‐EU citizen making a standard application based on having 5 years
residence:
 Evidence of your residency permissions that cover a CONTINUOUS PERIOD of 365/366
days in the year immediately prior to the date of application (date of Statutory Declaration)" - If applying this way it is asking for the "continuous residence" as per the new court ruling

According to the application form section based on married to an Irish national, it is not asking about the "continuous residence", only asking for residency permission for one year prior to application. So does this mean if applying based on married to an Irish nation is not affected?

Does the new ruling specify which basis the application is on or is it covering all applications?

Surely most if not all applicants who are applying for citizenship have been out of the country for at least one day in the 12 months before applying.
The CONTINUOUS residence law applies to both Non-EU citizens and Spouse of EU citizen.
In both section 15 and 15 A (Naturalisation of spouses of Irish citizens), one year Continuos residence is specified, irrespective of what form 8 says only for Non EU citizens

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by tobykeith » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:15 pm

I sent an email to my lawyer and he clearly said that if this is NOT fixed the chances of revoking my wife citizenship are big because it meets in full one of the conditions for it.

Here:

"Citizenship may be revoked if:

- It was obtained by fraud, misrepresentation or by concealing relevant facts
- You have failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the state
- Read other circumstances in which citizenship can be revoked"

What is the problem here he said is the word "misrepresentation", in this scenario by the minister, so if someone submit an appeal to the high court that he thinks that all the citizenships in the past were issued by misrepresentation by the minister than we are in big trouble.

But anyway, he said that they hope that this is going to be fixed soon. The other problem is that even if this is fixed by making the low clear, they still dont know what is going to happened with all the citizenships issued in the past ... so he said there is a big chaos and lets see how its going to end.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by tobykeith » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:29 pm

This seems like a good news from inis:

Notice | Statement from INIS on the recent judgment in the High Court citizenship case
19 July 2019

We are aware that the judgment in this case has given cause for concern and may have been upsetting for many people who are in the citizenship process. We want to assure you that we are taking all appropriate steps to remedy the situation as quickly as possible. The best interests of applicants and future applicants are foremost in our considerations.

In the meantime, Citizenship Division is continuing to receive and process applications. Planning for the next Citizenship Ceremony in September is also underway. We are not advising citizenship applicants or future applicants to cancel any current or upcoming travel plans.

Our advice for people who are planning to apply for citizenship is to continue to collect all the necessary proofs that support your application and to submit a comprehensive application form. Once a solution is in place, if any additional information is required, you will be contacted as part of the processing of your application.

We do not believe that this ruling has consequences for anyone who has already obtained citizenship under the Act.

We ask for your patience while we put in place a solution as an urgent priority. Further updates will be posted on this website when available. If you would like to speak to us about your case, you can contact us as follows http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/co ... itizenship.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:53 pm

INIS can quite frankly believe whatever they like. They cannot even give concrete assurance. "We do not believe".
Unfortunately, as much as I hate it, I hold a contrary believe. We are all creature of the statute. We are all bound by the law of the land. The discretion of the minister is only engaged if a person fulfils all the criteria in the act. If the court say a person who was out one day fall fouls of 15(1)(c), then the minister has no discretion to exercise, as simple as that.

In practice , I believe individuals will be fine, but if I want to be legalistic, then they are not fine.

The minister was never right to have exercised discretion.

The Court of Appeal or supreme court needs to overturn this absurdity, very quickly , or it will create legal issues.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by hdsgnr » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:08 pm

I went on a holiday abroad to see my kid for 21 days this year, and I've applied for citizenship only this Monday (15 July).

I was preparing for the application for so long... I wanted my documents to be perfect. Explicitly checked for the allowed gaps for the last year and even got a reply from "Citizenship Info <citizenshipinfo@justice.ie>" saying:
Please be advised that a person is entitled to be absent from the country
for up to 6 weeks in total in any one year without it having any
consequence on their application for naturalisation.
Absences of more than
6 weeks need to be listed and a brief note explaining the reason for each
absence.Each application is reviewed on its own merit and will and not be
reviewed until an application is received.
I followed all given instructions, from the gov website, the application manual and their team.
Payed a bunch of money for the fee, solicitors, translators, printing etc. and all little things that came with it on the way + the huge amount of time and nerves I spent to prepare...

And now what?

Sorry palls, not your fault, it's the gift of legislature, just wait one more year and pay all fees again.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by water_tank1 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:15 pm

Seems like we applied on the same day!


[quote=hdsgnr post_id=1804876 time=1563563308 user_id=211245]
I went on a holiday abroad to see my kid for 21 days this year, and I've applied for citizenship only this Monday (15 July).

hdsgnr
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by hdsgnr » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:37 pm

water_tank1 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:15 pm
Seems like we applied on the same day!
I even got back an acknowledgment letter for my application just yesterday (3 days later after applying) packed with my passport and national id card, which is a friggin record, judging by the stories in the forum and some friends.
I have a friend waiting for his passport over 2.5 months.

So I got excited and optimistic and >bam<! A punch in the face.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by water_tank1 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:43 pm

Yes I am the same, got the passport back this week with a letter saying a letter with application ID and receipt will issue in due course.

I couldn't believe the passport got returned so fast despite others on here waiting a lengthy time and even trying to get there passport back for travel plans.

Maybe they will want the passport back later on in the application process.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by eraylankester » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:46 pm

My wife has been approved and paid her 950 Euro etc. Of course we are worried how this may impact us, but I don’t think it’s too much cause for concern. The judge implied that he believes the law should be changed and from reading various articles, there is no government will to impede this. Indeed, quite the opposite.

I think it’s pretty certain that the 6 week period will be made official before September’s ceremony. INIS must know this, otherwise they would not have officially advised applicants NOT to suspend/cancel travel plans etc, or confirm that they were still planning to hold September’s ceremony and that existing citizens would not be affected (sure sign of legal advice and high level decision making - if in doubt, they would have said nothing as concrete).

So, I wouldn’t panic. If they thought that this was Armageddon they would have already suspended applications.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by wec1979 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:19 pm

Statement from INIS on the recent judgment in the High Court citizenship case.
http://www.inis.gov.ie

White_Pearl
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by White_Pearl » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:21 am

nojoyfrominis wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:15 pm
Our passports don’t get stamped but they have all the info on airline database when you check in to flights
Means, they will check all airlines databases, which airlines operating from Dublin.... :?

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Stress » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:34 am

Agreed. When I applied for mine 3 years ago, I hadn't gone out of the country the year immediately prior to the application date. My wife applied for hers last year, and her application is still being processed. After I heard the news yesterday, I immediately checked her travel dates since she had visited family abroad in the previous calendar year. But turns out it was just before the 12 months leading up to her application date, so she is on the clear.

I remember that in the year leading up to my application, I was particular about not travelling abroad, just to be on the safer side. I had the same thinking for my wife's application as well, and that is probably why we did her application 12 months after her return from her family visit, even though she was eligible months earlier.
[/quote]


Have you travelled after submitting your application? If you are traveling after submitting application does it effect?

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Mal111 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:54 am

Obi just to clarify there is no Provision for revocation of citizenship except section 19
And section 18 says once issued the certificate ur irish except revoked within the condition of section 19

So for anyone worried about ur citizenship its just not possible its a catch 22 between section 18 and 19
There is no provision in the law to void citizenship it can be only revoked under the conditions of section 19

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Rony Clare » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:10 pm

Any update, any hopes about continues residency looking forward to attending September ceremony. Hope everything workout well before 😞

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by takeabow » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:40 pm

So, appeal is in, but wont be heard until Oct 8. And that is subject to appointment of new judges. If they are not appointed, then it wont be until 2021.

So, over to the minister to pass emergency legislation. But that wont be until after the summer - 2nd half of September.

Great timing, huh!!!

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:42 pm

Who has appealed the minister or applicant?

https://www.thejournal.ie/court-of-appe ... 0-Jul2019/
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by southcal » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:52 pm

The applicant

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Stress » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:54 pm

What about those people who have received their approvals and waiting for the ceremony

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:00 pm

Mal111 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:54 am
Obi just to clarify there is no Provision for revocation of citizenship except section 19
And section 18 says once issued the certificate ur irish except revoked within the condition of section 19

So for anyone worried about ur citizenship its just not possible its a catch 22 between section 18 and 19
There is no provision in the law to void citizenship it can be only revoked under the conditions of section 19
These provisions are in existence, but they presume the existence of a certificate which was lawfully issued to someone whom the minister was of the view meets the statutory requirements either through genuine or false representations.

It does not envisage an ultra vires certificate, which was issued without legal authority.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by markem » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:08 pm

Obie wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:00 pm
Mal111 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:54 am
Obi just to clarify there is no Provision for revocation of citizenship except section 19
And section 18 says once issued the certificate ur irish except revoked within the condition of section 19

So for anyone worried about ur citizenship its just not possible its a catch 22 between section 18 and 19
There is no provision in the law to void citizenship it can be only revoked under the conditions of section 19
These provisions are in existence, but they presume the existence of a certificate which was lawfully issued to someone whom the minister was of the view meets the statutory requirements either through genuine or false representations.

It does not envisage an ultra vires certificate, which was issued without legal authority.
For what it's worth, INIS has said on its latest update:
We do not believe that this ruling has consequences for anyone who has already obtained citizenship under the Act.
Timeline threads here:
2020 /
2019 / 2018 / 2017 / 2016

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:12 pm

Worth noting that INIS is not the law of the land. They are simply setting out what they feel, that view is not even a legal advise or opinion, just a mere assertion.
The views of the minister or the ministry of Justice is only relevant in circumstances where statute gives it a discretion or an absolute discretion. Section 15(1)(c) does not seem like one of them.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by madmedman » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:35 pm

Obie wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:12 pm
Worth noting that INIS is not the law of the land. They are simply setting out what they feel, that view is not even a legal advise or opinion, just a mere assertion.
The views of the minister or the ministry of Justice is only relevant in circumstances where statute gives it a discretion or an absolute discretion. Section 15(1)(c) does not seem like one of them.
Does that make all the approvals since 1956 suspect? I mean of course the ones where the applicant was out of the country in the last year? I myself was on holiday for 12 days and got my approval in 2017. This judgement has really made things uncertain for me. I am guessing that a sizable majority of people who got citizenship had been absent in the last year for a few days at least.

The pessimist that I am, I am just wondering if I need to think about getting legal advice as I am in the Eu and working outside Ireland now. Should our citizenships be revoked, What would the implications of that be for me and my family. Part of me thinks it would be ok but then there is a possibility of anything happening.

I am hoping the the next judge would concentrate more on “residence” part rather than “continuous”.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:10 pm

It is worth waiting for the outcome from the Court of Appeal, then the minister may decide to make law that will have retrospective effect if the views of the High Court is upheld.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by madmedman » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:24 pm

Obie wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:10 pm
It is worth waiting for the outcome from the Court of Appeal, then the minister may decide to make law that will have retrospective effect if the views of the High Court is upheld.
Thanks. I hope sanity will prevail.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by southcal » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:44 pm

I'm hoping they will change the Act in a single sitting in September, so no need for any more amusing interpretations from the bench.

The Court of Appeal has set the hearing date for October.

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