"Further evidence" of partnership with sponsor still subsisting?

Hi all good people of the board,

Here is our situation, in brief: I am a dual (EEA/UK) national having lived in the UK in excess of twenty years. I am on what is considered a good and settled salary that is in excess of what I see is required to sponsor my partner, who has just joined me here in Scotland, on a tourist visa. She works in primary education and plans to find a part-time job until she finishes with her postgraduate studies, approximately until by end of the year. She would then be looking for a full-time job in her sector.

Here is where our questions begin:

1. Would finding a part-time job right now allow her to secure a Tier 2 visa? Since I suspect the answer to this is no (as very few, if any teaching jobs would pay £25,600 p/a for a part-time post) our Plan B is to apply for a spouse visa, which will then allow her to work freely even below the T2 threshold.

2. I believe I have a case for applying late for EU citizen resident rights (essentially using Surinder Singh) as I have been working remotely for my UK employer from the EEA for the past two years because of Covid, while in the last year I was additionally on an official research field trip to the same EEA country. What kind of evidence is required to support this late application? Would a letter from my line manager suffice, for example?

3. What happens if our EEA-route application for a spouse visa is rejected? Can we then apply via the UK route, and will my partner be able to stay in the country in the meantime?

4. Since we are not married or in a civil partnership, but have been in a relationship for 2+ years, what kind of proof of this relationship would suffice? and

5. Any idea how long these applications take these days, even if approximate.

As always, thank you to every single one of you for the help you are providing in this forum, helping us all navigate an increasingly difficult landscape.

Cheers

Can't assist with your detailed questions, however, I'm concerned by the statement "....who has just joined me here in Scotland, on a tourist visa.".
Visitor visas allow only a limited range of activities, which doesn't include job seeking. I believe work visas need to be applied for from outside the UK.
If Surringer Singh is possible it may be different. But others with more knowledge may have more input.

Which EU country were you working remotely from? The one you are a national EU national of?

Was your partner in the EU country with you and are they EU or no EU citizen?

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:56 am

4. Since we are not married or in a civil partnership, but have been in a relationship for 2+ years, what kind of proof of this relationship would suffice?

Just being in a relationship isn't enough. The relationship needs to be akin to marriage. What that means isn't always clear cut, but grosso modo,
you need to prove that you have already been operating as a married couple for at least two years. This usually means 2 years of cohabitation AND joint financial commitments, like a joint bank account that pays rent and bills, a mortgage, or the joint responsibility of raising children.

Of course, each application is different; but the above should give you an idea of the nature of the relationship that is expected.

You and your girlfriend might want to read these-

What she can't do on a visitor visa
https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor


https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/partner-spouse
She will need to meet the partner rules stated. This visa cannot be applied for from within the UK as a visitor or as an overstayer.


The EUSS route requirements
https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-ci ... ligibility


The skilled worker visa, which she would have to apply for from outside the UK, if she found a sponsor
https://www.gov.uk/skilled-worker-visa

alterhase58 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:54 pm

Can't assist with your detailed questions, however, I'm concerned by the statement "....who has just joined me here in Scotland, on a tourist visa.".
Visitor visas allow only a limited range of activities, which doesn't include job seeking. I believe work visas need to be applied for from outside the UK.
If Surringer Singh is possible it may be different. But others with more knowledge may have more input.

Thank you that is of course a good call and something we should have looked into before. She will refrain from any job applications until we sort this out. How would Surringer Singh change things? And are there any others here on this forum that might have more info on what might be required specifically for me to prove I had a reason to be late with this application?

CR001 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:07 pm

Which EU country were you working remotely from? The one you are a national EU national of?

Was your partner in the EU country with you and are they EU or no EU citizen?

Thank you for your response. I was working remotely from Greece, which is indeed also the country of my EU nationality and also yes, my partner was with me there and they are a Greek national as well.

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:22 pm

CR001 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:07 pm

Which EU country were you working remotely from? The one you are a national EU national of?

Was your partner in the EU country with you and are they EU or no EU citizen?

Thank you for your response. I was working remotely from Greece, which is indeed also the country of my EU nationality and also yes, my partner was with me there and they are a Greek national as well.

In order to utilise the Surinder Singh route, you would have been required to be in an EU country of which you are not a citizen and exercising treaty rights in the EU country (of which you are not a citizen) as a British citizen, ie paying tax and having all the relevant residence etc required.

I think the only route available to you is the more costly Spouse visa route.

kamoe wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:20 pm

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:56 am

4. Since we are not married or in a civil partnership, but have been in a relationship for 2+ years, what kind of proof of this relationship would suffice?

Just being in a relationship isn't enough. The relationship needs to be akin to marriage. What that means isn't always clear cut, but grosso modo,
you need to prove that you have already been operating as a married couple for at least two years. This usually means 2 years of cohabitation AND joint financial commitments, like a joint bank account that pays rent and bills, a mortgage, or the joint responsibility of raising children.

Of course, each application is different; but the above should give you an idea of the nature of the relationship that is expected.

That's really useful to know, thank you!

CR001 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:24 pm

In order to utilise the Surinder Singh route, you would have been required to be in an EU country of which you are not a citizen and exercising treaty rights in the EU country (of which you are not a citizen) as a British citizen, ie paying tax and having all the relevant residence etc required.

I think the only route available to you is the more costly Spouse visa route.

Thank you. But given that I was in Greece and I am a UK citizen, am I not in this way exercising treaty rights in that EU country? I am asking because I do know cases of friends/acquaintances that have done that exact same thing (that is, dual UK/Greek nationals who have spent time in Greece with non EEA partners, then used SS to apply for residence for their non EEA partners). I had always assumed that as dual nationals we are first and foremost the citizens of the country that we are dealing with - that is, the British state sees us as British and the Greek as Greek - hence why it is not possible for the second country of a dual national to ask for them to be extradited if in legal trouble, for example. What are your thoughts?

Thanks again

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:06 pm

But given that I was in Greece and I am a UK citizen, am I not in this way exercising treaty rights in that EU country?

No. If you were British and not dual British and Greek, then yes, that could be the case, but you are also Greek. You cannot exercise treaty rights in your own country.

I am asking because I do know cases of friends/acquaintances that have done that exact same thing (that is, dual UK/Greek nationals who have spent time in Greece with non EEA partners, then used SS to apply for residence for their non EEA partners).

This only works if they exercised treaty rights in Greece as UK nationals before becoming Greek citizens. This would not work if they were already Greek when they came to Greece to exercise treaty rights. Again, if you are Greek and go to Greece for work (or if you are French and go to France for work, or Italian and in Italy for work, etc.), then by definition you are NOT exercising treaty rights, since you are in your own country of nationality.

I had always assumed that as dual nationals we are first and foremost the citizens of the country that we are dealing with - that is, the British state sees us as British and the Greek as Greek - hence why it is not possible for the second country of a dual national to ask for them to be extradited if in legal trouble, for example. What are your thoughts?

Well, precisely. In Greece you are Greek, then you are in the country of your nationality and, for the third time, by definition that means you are NOT exercising treaty rights in Greece.

The rules regarding Surinder Singh are very specific in that it can only be applied if the relevant country is NOT the EU citizen country of nationality.

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:06 pm

I do know cases of friends/acquaintances that have done that exact same thing (that is, dual UK/Greek nationals who have spent time in Greece with non EEA partners, then used SS to apply for residence for their non EEA partners).

Maybe ask them further details of exactly what they did. Did they use Surinder Singh to apply for residence in Greece, or in the UK? (The Surinder Singh route is open in any EU state). Maybe they might not have used Surinder Singh but the Lounes rote of the EU Settlement Scheme. Which, might or might not apply to you.

To be able to definitely tell you wether there is a chance you can apply through a EU route, would you please share your full timeline?

When did you first come to the UK?
When did you naturalise as British?
When did you move back to Greece?
When did you start your relationship with your partner?
Is this relationship of a durable nature, as described by 2 years of cohabitation AND joint financial commitments?

and last but not least,

What is your reason for applying in 2022, and not by the deadline on 2021?

kamoe wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:46 pm

Maybe ask them further details of exactly what they did. Did they use Surinder Singh to apply for residence in Greece, or in the UK? (The Surinder Singh route is open in any EU state). Maybe they might not have used Surinder Singh but the Lounes rote of the EU Settlement Scheme. Which, might or might not apply to you.

That's really useful to know. I'll do exactly that - ask them.

When did you first come to the UK?
All the way back in 2001.

When did you naturalise as British?
2011.

When did you move back to Greece?
I've been back and forth between Greece and the UK for the past three years, since early 2019.

When did you start your relationship with your partner?
Around that time, early-mid 2019.

Is this relationship of a durable nature, as described by 2 years of cohabitation AND joint financial commitments?
Yes indeed

and last but not least,

What is your reason for applying in 2022, and not by the deadline on 2021?
Being stuck in Greece due to Covid restrictions together with the fact that I had work commitments in the country (and assumed that I must be back in the UK to apply).

She could potentially apply for a EU Family Permit via the Lounes route, but... that is subject to your relationship already having met the durable relationship criteria (2 years of cohabitation and all financial commitments met) by 31st of December 2020, which is only about 1.5 from start of relationship. Which is very tight. Not impossible (some discretion is sometimes exercised as to the length of cohabitation), but much more difficult to prove and justify, specially since it could be interpreted that the reason you did not apply by the deadline was because your relationship was not durable yet!

Otherwise, yes, as @CR001 has pointed out, your other alternative would be the partner visa via the general family member route for British citizens.

Small correction for the above: In the event you can prove that your relationship was indeed durable as early as 31st December 2020, your partner could apply for Pre-settled status directly, no need for a Family Permit, and she could do so while on a visitor visa (I think this is the only exception of routes allowing applications while on visit visas).

BUT (and there are big buts):

1. As I said above, you have two big obstacles to jump, which are not trivial (relationship eligible by 31/12/2020 and justifiable reason of late application).

2. Some EUSS applications, specially non-straightforward ones, are taking several months. The most unlucky people have been wanting for more than a year.

If time is an issue, it is wise to seriously consider the partner visa for family members of British nationals, outside of the EU Settlement Scheme.

kamoe wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:52 am

Small correction for the above: In the event you can prove that your relationship was indeed durable as early as 31st December 2020, your partner could apply for Pre-settled status directly, no need for a Family Permit, and she could do so while on a visitor visa (I think this is the only exception of routes allowing applications while on visit visas).

BUT (and there are big buts):

1. As I said above, you have two big obstacles to jump, which are not trivial (relationship eligible by 31/12/2020 and justifiable reason of late application).

2. Some EUSS applications, specially non-straightforward ones, are taking several months. The most unlucky people have been wanting for more than a year.

If time is an issue, it is wise to seriously consider the partner visa for family members of British nationals, outside of the EU Settlement Scheme.

Thank you for all this info kamoe, and everyone else on this thread. This is fantastically informative for me - I am grateful. A few questions that now spring up:

1. What counts toward proving the relationship is not trivial? We have a joint account in Greece and rent payment has been going out of this for the duration of our relationship. I can also get a letter from our landlord confirming we are the two joint tenants in the house. Would this be enough, according to people's experience? What else could I submit as such evidence?

2. Again in your experience, would Brexit plus work in Greece contracted by the UK seem like a legible excuse for a late application? Here I am planning on submitting a letter from my line manager confirming this was the case. Would this suffice? What kind of other evidence can I submit? and

3. What happens to my partner (a) while she waits for the outcome of the application and (b) if her application for pre-settled status is rejected? Would it not be possible for her to apply for pre-settled status and, if rejected, for us to try the partner visa for family members of British nationals? Or could a failed pre-settled status application be detrimental to her chances for the partner visa as well?

Thanks as always!

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:22 am

1. What counts toward proving the relationship is not trivial? We have a joint account in Greece and rent payment has been going out of this for the duration of our relationship. I can also get a letter from our landlord confirming we are the two joint tenants in the house. Would this be enough, according to people's experience? What else could I submit as such evidence?

All I can say is that this mirrors the old unmarried partner route that existed before Brexit, and I can only guess the same type of evidence is needed: Rule of thumb was to supply 6 separate pieces of correspondence addressed to the both of you and to the same address, from three different sources. These should cover evenly the 2-year period you are trying to prove (in your case it needs to cover from the moment you started living together up until now, because you need to prove the relationship still exists). Best thing to send are always official documents, e.g. council tax bill, utility bills, and joint bank statements; all of these addressed to the both of you (with both of your names as occupiers of the household, or account holders). If you can provide that (or the Greek equivalent), then you have most of the work done.

I went through the old route, and wrote a post at the time, with my best tips here. Obviously things have changed a bit, I think you no longer need to send physical documents, but the essence is there.

2. Again in your experience, would Brexit plus work in Greece contracted by the UK seem like a legible excuse for a late application? Here I am planning on submitting a letter from my line manager confirming this was the case. Would this suffice? What kind of other evidence can I submit? and

I know covid-related reasons are usually accepted, but I do not have first-hand experience on how accommodating they are. Best policy is to always explain your reasons truthfully.

3. What happens to my partner (a) while she waits for the outcome of the application

Nothing. The application has no effect on any current visa. She simply needs to respect the terms of her current visa obviously, but this does not get cancelled just because she applied, no.

and (b) if her application for pre-settled status is rejected?

Nothing, but... although her visa won't get cancelled just because she applies for another type of leave and got rejected, any future visitor visa might be difficult (and some here say impossible) to get, since a failed immigration application proves her intention is not to visit, but to stay for the long run.

Would it not be possible for her to apply for pre-settled status and, if rejected, for us to try the partner visa for family members of British nationals?

Yes, that is possible. If the Home Office rejects her application they would be pretty much sending you the message to apply for the family member of British national route, so that would be a completely normal course of action.

Or could a failed pre-settled status application be detrimental to her chances for the partner visa as well?

Not for her chances of partner visa, but for visit visas as explained above.

Now... another big caviat is that you might prefer to not hold your breath for the partner route of the EU Settlement Scheme. First, because it can take quite a long time; and second, because I have seen reports of durable partners getting their application refused because they do not have a Family Permit or Residence card, which seems to me like a mistake from the part of the case worker, judging by how the rules seems to have been updated (See this post).

Good luck.

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:56 am

Hi all good people of the board,

Here is our situation, in brief: I am a dual (EEA/UK) national having lived in the UK in excess of twenty years. I am on what is considered a good and settled salary that is in excess of what I see is required to sponsor my partner, who has just joined me here in Scotland, on a tourist visa. S

There is also any healthcare bills to think about. She night want to look at how long her Greek EHIC will cover her for and what costs Greece will cover under their EHIC. Especailly if she does not leave the UK when her visitor visa date expires.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/nhs-entitle ... e-migrants

Thanks again kamoe and all boards friends for this invaluable info.

We have been pondering out choices and have some, hopefully final, info before we decide on a course of action. Would anyone please happen to know:

1. Can my partner exit the country now and apply for the six-month EU family permit? Presumably this needs similar evidence to that of an established relationship (joint mortgage, bank account, utility bills etc). How long on average does this take to issue?

2. If she were to apply for the family permit now from outside the country (#1) and wait for the three months required before applying for the EU settlement scheme, could it be that this is then used against her in that she will have applied for the EU settlement scheme even later than the original deadline? We are confident we have good enough reason to be applying for the scheme now, in August 2022, but not too sure these reasons will be as valid in November. Or is waiting for the family permit a reason in itself?

3. Alternatively, can she exit the country now and apply for the EU settlement scheme (via the Lourdes route)? we understand this could mean her being out of the country for months, but presumably this also means the lack of a family permit cannot be brought up as a reason to reject the application (even if this is in itself an invalid reason).

Always with gratitude,

First of all, you seem to think she has to exit the country. Not necessarily. As I said earlier, according to official sources, she can apply for the EU Settlement Scheme from within the UK on a visitor visa (See section "Not in the UK as a visitor", page 102 of the EU Settlement Scheme Caseworker guidance).

For applications decided from 6 October 2021, the requirement not to be in the UK as a visitor was removed from Appendix EU (by virtue of the changes made in Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules: HC 617). This means that applicants are no longer required not to be in the UK as a visitor to qualify for leave under Appendix EU as a joining family member of a relevant sponsor.

Now, regarding your questions:

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:25 pm

1. Can my partner exit the country now and apply for the six-month EU family permit? Presumably this needs similar evidence to that of an established relationship (joint mortgage, bank account, utility bills etc).

She can exit the country anytime she wants, that is not the issue.
The evidence for a Family Permit is pretty much the same as the evidence for Pre-Settled status (and, for both, you have to prove an established relationship).

How long on average does this take to issue?

Maybe this post can give you an idea? (It's not a timeline thread with inputs from many people, just the experience of one person, though. Therefore, it might or might not be indicative of average waiting times.)

2. If she were to apply for the family permit now from outside the country (#1) and wait for the three months required before applying for the EU settlement scheme

What do you mean here? I do not know what three months you are referring to, nothing I am aware of. There is no restriction, anyone can apply straight away.

could it be that this is then used against her in that she will have applied for the EU settlement scheme even later than the original deadline? We are confident we have good enough reason to be applying for the scheme now, in August 2022, but not too sure these reasons will be as valid in November. Or is waiting for the family permit a reason in itself?

Whatever the answer to the above, it would be reasonable to expect that only the date of first application on a two-part process (Family Permit, then Pre-Settled Status; or Pre-Settled Status, then Settled Status) is taken into account when pondering if it's a late application, because obviously you cannot do the second application without the first one. You are overthinking.

3. Alternatively, can she exit the country now and apply for the EU settlement scheme (via the Lourdes route)?

I don't think you understand. She has to apply via the Lounes route in any case.
Either applying for a Family Permit from abroad via Lounes, or for Pre-Settled Status within the UK via Lounes.
There is no way around it.

we understand this could mean her being out of the country for months, but presumably this also means the lack of a family permit cannot be brought up as a reason to reject the application (even if this is in itself an invalid reason).

Actually, I have seen the argument of the lack of Family Permit or residence card used against people who were previously resident in the UK, not people who have never lived in the UK who just arrived and are in the UK on a visitor visa. Otherwise the section I quoted at the beginning of this post makes no sense.

Thank you for your patience and guidance throughout, Camoe and all other board members - much appreciated as always.

We have now made the decision to apply for a spouse visa going via the Lounes route. However, two more questions:

- As a dual (UK/GR) national myself, I never applied for settled status both because I was abroad at the time but also because, obviously, I thought I didn't need this given my UK passport. Question is, if we are going via the Lounes route, do I also need to apply for settled status before my partner can apply to join me here as the partner of an EEA national? If this is the case, do I need to apply first, wait and then she applies - or can we apply at the same time?

- In terms of English language eligibility, my partner holds the Michigan ECCE (Examination for the Certificate of Competency in English), which is B2 apparently. Would this suffice or does she have to take another test?

Ta very much!

I suspect/hope this answers my first question, as indeed I exercised freedom of movement rights to move to the UK (all the way back in 2001) and retained my EEA citizenship after acquiring the UK one in 2011:

A family member of a relevant EEA citizen can also apply where they are the family member of a dual British and EEA citizen who exercised free movement rights in the UK prior to the acquisition of British citizenship and who retained their EEA nationality of origin after acquiring British citizenship. This reflects the CJEU judgment in Lounes.

https://freemovement.org.uk/quick-qa-eu ... nationals/

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:09 pm

We have now made the decision to apply for a spouse visa going via the Lounes route.

Just so it's clear: It's important to use the right terms.

There is no "spouse visa" under the EU Settlement Scheme. Your partner can potentially apply for Pre-settled status. The reason she might be eligible is that she's your durable partner, and the method of application is Lounes, because you are a dual UK/EU national,. But nowhere on her status or her biometric card will ever say "spouse visa" or "Lounes".

It's just Pre-settled status, period.

Question is, if we are going via the Lounes route, do I also need to apply for settled status before my partner can apply to join me here as the partner of an EEA national?

You don't need to apply. In fact, you can't, as you are already a UK citizen. UK citizens cannot apply for any UK immigration category, and that includes the EU Settlement Scheme.

- In terms of English language eligibility, my partner holds the Michigan ECCE (Examination for the Certificate of Competency in English), which is B2 apparently. Would this suffice or does she have to take another test?

There is no English language requirement for the EU Settlement Scheme.

Thanks as always, kamoe. We are at long last ready to apply for her pre-settled status as you correctly say (I am as you can see terrible with all things legal...)

A final question: the people over at this forum seem to think I would need to apply using a paper form:

https://www.forum.ukcen.com/resources/s ... als-lounes

Although the Lounes case makes it possible for dual UK/EEA nationals, to sponsor family members under the EU settlement scheme as above, applications for family members of EEA nationals who are also UK nationals ("Lounes" applications) are considerably more complex than regular applications where the EEA national is not a UK national.

Applications have to be made using a paper form which is only available on request, after answering a number of questions, and it's over 40 pages.

Do you think that is indeed the case?

englishgreek wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:58 am

A final question: the people over at this forum seem to think I would need to apply using a paper form:

https://www.forum.ukcen.com/resources/s ... als-lounes

Although the Lounes case makes it possible for dual UK/EEA nationals, to sponsor family members under the EU settlement scheme as above, applications for family members of EEA nationals who are also UK nationals ("Lounes" applications) are considerably more complex than regular applications where the EEA national is not a UK national.

Applications have to be made using a paper form which is only available on request, after answering a number of questions, and it's over 40 pages.

Do you think that is indeed the case?

That is indeed the case. I've said it myself.

That is one of the reasons people might want to hold on before acquiring British citizenship, as being dual national means their family members have to apply through Lounes, and Lounes requires a paper form, and a paper form will very likely delay their family member status application (but you have no choice since you are already a dual national, and you can't turn back time). See this post.