A quick question or two!

Thank you both very much for you help.

I telephoned the Foreign Policy Advisor to the Prime Minister and spoke to his secretary. She was really nice, I told her everything that happened. She understood very well the law and was shocked with regard to what was happening. Someone, (maybe the Policy Advisor) will be contacting them on my behalf.

I also contacted the UK embassy here, the reply follows:

We have spoken to the Immigration Department in Maria Louisa Street and they explained that your wife has the correct class visa, however, they need a confirmation from us that the Philllippine marriage is recognised in the UK. We have contacted the relevant colleagues in London to ask for advice on this matter.

We will contact you when we receive a reply from them.

I believe that there was a typing error and they meant to say 'your wife has the INcorrect class visa'.


Can somebody confirm for me if it matters about the class of visa?


Thank you all so very much once again!

No it doesn't matter one bit. Your wife entered in compliance with EU and national rules.

Even if she entered clandestine manner, her residency should not be affected, as stipulated by Metock.

The embassy should have been able to confirm without calling London, that any civil marriages recognised by a particular country is accepted in the UK, save for few exceptional cases.

http://www.flyawayweddings.com/legal/uk/

A civil marriage conducted in the Philippines is recognised in the UK for sure.

The Bulgarians don't need to be concerned whether or not the brits recognised your marriage, rather, they should be concerned whether your marriage is valid and recognised by the Philippines authorities.

Thank you so very much indeed. So very grateful to you as ever!!!


At least I now have the big names (hopefully) fighting my case, hopefully some good will come of it before I resort to SOLVIT.


Thank you again.

I have now asked for help from 4 directions:

UK Embassy in Sofia
Secretary of the Foreign Policy advisor to the Prime Minister of Bulgaria
EU Member of Parliament for Sofia (who replied and really wants to help!)
A complaint at the EU commission

I have, however, found this link:

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/re ... -04900.pdf

EEA family permits must be issued to third country national family members of EU citizens for the purpose of accompanying or joining the EU citizen to the host state (eg. the UK) irrespective of whether the family member has been lawfully (or indeed at all) resident in another Member State before arriving;

The right to family reunification in the host state does not depend on where or when the family life was established.

I am thinking of applying for the family permit very soon, it seems she doesn't need the residence card and she isn't here illegally. I no longer wish to reside here and will be returning to the UK. My family is being discriminated against. A quote from the MEP for Sofia in his return email:

Unfortunately the treatment you have received is a bad legacy from the previous administration, which applied double standard in favor of the citizens of one of the accession countries and disregarded all the others.

Due to health problems, my mum is unable to fly to Bulgaria. She will get a letter from her GP to confirm this.

I have a contract of employment, but have not received a salary yet. I do have lots of documents to be translated and this might take a while.

I don't think u've excersiced a treaty right for long enough yet to use the ECJ Singh ruling...

Wanderer wrote:I don't think u've excersiced a treaty right for long enough yet to use the ECJ Singh ruling...

Wanderer's right, Andy. You will need to have been pursuing an economic activity in another Member State for 6 months (according to the UK's published implementation) in order to return under Singh.

Thanks for the thoughts.

I did read that six months is a guideline and there should be a good reason if we apply under that time. We are being discriminated against and therefore I am not going to stay here any longer.

If they deny us entry I will apply again, and again and again!

andy and ann wrote:I did read that six months is a guideline and there should be a good reason if we apply under that time.

You are right, the notion of "six months" is not mentioned once in the Singh ruling. It has been invented by the UK and can probably be contested.

However, what is absolutely imperative, is that you have been pursuing an economic activity in another Member State. Have you been working at all in Bulgaria, as yet?

Yes Benifa, but I only began my job on Wednesday of last week. I am working for a large German company calling contacts to verify the details are correct. The shame of it is that it is a fantastic job with huge potential and I would be more than happy to stay!

Thanks a lot for the input, I really do appreciate it.

No problem.

But Andy, am I missing something? Apologies if I am. I thought you originally wanted to move to Bulgaria, stay (and work) for about 6 months, then move on to the UK where your wife will give birth?

If so, aren't you on course to do just that? If the absence of Ann's Residence Card is getting you down, I can understand. But it doesn't impede your plans in any way, does it?

The plan had always been to apply for the family permit sooner than the six months. I just feel as though we have a great excuse to get it sorted out sooner.

Ann will be 5 months pregnant on 27 October, I believe she won't be allowed to fly if she is 6 months pregnant without a letter from the doctor.

Although I wasn't working here in Bulgaria originally, please do bare in mind that I lived here for 17 months prior to going out to The Philippines. The reason that I mention this is that they say that you have to have been there long enough to build ties with the country.

I understand. May I ask, how long were you in the Philippines for, following your 17 month residence in Bulgaria?

From what you have said, I agree with you. I think you are able to benefit from the Singh ruling - now.

You were resident in another Member State where you were pursuing an economic activity for well over 6 months. You are still resident in that Member State, you are still pursuing an economic activity. You left the Member State temporarily for an "important reason" (see below).

Article 11 of Directive 2004/38/EC refers to the validity of the Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen:

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 11(2) wrote:The validity of the residence card shall not be affected by temporary absences not exceeding six
months a year, or by absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service or by one
absence of a maximum of twelve consecutive months for important reasons such as pregnancy and
childbirth, serious illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another Member State or a
third country.

Although this text refers to the validity of the Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen, it can be taken for granted that if the residence of the family members of a Union citizen is not considered "broken" for the reasons stated, then the residence of the Union citizen himself would also not be considered broken for the same circumstances.

Therefore, if the reason for your departure from Bulgaria was for an "important reason such as pregnancy" (and if you did not leave Bulgaria for more than 12 months), your residence in Bulgaria has not been broken. Thus, for the purpose of Ann's EEA Family Permit application and for her subsequent EEA2 application in the UK, your period of residence in Bulgaria is from when you first entered Bulgaria at the beginning of the initial 17 months period - not from when you entered Bulgaria last month.

This is assuming that you:
a) left Bulgaria for an important reason such as pregnancy and,
b) did not leave Bulgaria for more than 12 months.

benifa wrote:

andy and ann wrote:I did read that six months is a guideline and there should be a good reason if we apply under that time.

You are right, the notion of "six months" is not mentioned once in the Singh ruling. It has been invented by the UK and can probably be contested.

However, what is absolutely imperative, is that you have been pursuing an economic activity in another Member State. Have you been working at all in Bulgaria, as yet?

I would think it would have to be more then three months tho - as u r allowed 90 days as a Schengen visitor it would be unfair to be able to claim it under those circumstances - folks would be abusing the route on visits...

I am so sorry Benifa, as I didn't make myself very clear. Although I was living here I was unaware of the need to get the residence card so I was actually living here illegally.

At the time I wasn't working, just living off of my savings.

I was in The Philippines for 11 months.

Sorry for the confusion.

Wanderer, I respect what you are saying, but I have lawfully been trying to get a residence card for my wife and have been discriminated against. I believe this to be a special reason to apply early.

If we are refused, I don't see that it matters as we can then re-apply later, and keep on doing so.

andy and ann wrote:Wanderer, I respect what you are saying, but I have lawfully been trying to get a residence card for my wife and have been discriminated against. I believe this to be a special reason to apply early.

I don't think you have, it doesn't seem fair to me to be able to use the EU route after such a short time - or I, and maybe 1,000's of others would do it by hopping to France for a week or two and coming back with an EU FP and nothing else to pay!

The discrimination card is a tough card to play, and to be honest all I see is EEA/Bulgarian bureaucracy where is the discrimination here?

The original reason for the residence card to be denied was that we have not lived together in the UK. When I met with a supervisor and told her it was rubbish, and referred to the Metock ruling she replied "oh! You know about that do you?" This implies to me that she knows we have a right to reside here but is trying to prevent it for some reason. They are on their third illegal excuse now.

I found this article, albeit regarding Danish immigration:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3457

2.A Dane who comes back from abroad together with his non-EU spouse had to have been working as an employee or freelancer during his stay abroad. This condition has been reduced by the ECJ to a period of just a couple of weeks.

I agree with you that using the EU route might not seem fair after such a short time, but I have not lived in the UK for almost 3 years.

andy and ann wrote:I am so sorry Benifa, as I didn't make myself very clear. Although I was living here I was unaware of the need to get the residence card so I was actually living here illegally.

Whoa there! As an EEA national, you don't have a Residence Card (these are only for non-EEA family members). You may be a required to apply for a registration certificate once the initial 3 months are up, but whether you do or you don't, your right to reside is not affected. At no point were you resident illegally.

andy and ann wrote:At the time I wasn't working, just living off of my savings.

For the entire 17 months? Did you not work at all? Damn. Not pursuing an economic activity then, since you were economically self-sufficient.

andy and ann wrote:I was in The Philippines for 11 months.

Perfect. So, from what I can gather your dates may be appoximately:

• May 2007 - October 2008. 17 months resident in Bulgaria as an economically self-sufficient person.
• October 2008 - September 2009. 11 months in the Philippines for an important reason (marriage?) and pregnancy.
• September 2009 - present. Continuation of residence in Bulgaria, now pursuing economic activities.

If I've got the above more or less right, that makes either 29 months residence in Bulgaria (or 12 months, depending on your interpretation of Article 11), remembering that one absence from the host Member State of a maximum of twelve consecutive months for important reasons such as pregnancy do not cause residence to be broken.

Therefore, as far as I can see, the period of residence in another Member State is not the problem. It's the time spent pursuing an economic activity that is the problem. I.E., only the last week.

But wait, have a look at this:

RIGHTS OF NON-EEA NATIONAL FAMILY MEMBERS OF EUROPEAN ECONOMIC AREA (EEA) NATIONALS, 2.5.1 wrote:The ECJ case of SURINDER SINGH ruled that where a national of a Member State goes with his/her non-EEA national spouse to another Member State to exercise an economic Treaty right, on return to his/her own Member State the non-EEA national spouse is entitled to join the EEA national under EC law.

Hmm, problem is, you didn't go to Bulgaria with Ann, until last month. This may mean that your residence in Bulgaria since (approximately) May 2007 is not counted. Also:

RIGHTS OF NON-EEA NATIONAL FAMILY MEMBERS OF EUROPEAN ECONOMIC AREA (EEA) NATIONALS, 2.5.1 wrote:Under regulation 9 of the 2006 Regulations, the family members of a British national returning to the UK will be treated as if they were the family members of an EEA national under the following conditions:
•
After leaving the United Kingdom, the British national resided in an EEA state and –
o
Was employed there (other than on a transient or casual basis); or
o
Established him/herself there as a self-employed person; and
•
If the family member is his/her spouse, the marriage took place, and the parties lived together in an EEA state, before the British national returned to the United Kingdom.

Another hmm.. You weren't married in Bulgaria, were you? The UK wants you to have been. On the plus side, the "six months" condition is not mentioned in this text. Finally,

RIGHTS OF NON-EEA NATIONAL FAMILY MEMBERS OF EUROPEAN ECONOMIC AREA (EEA) NATIONALS, 2.5.1 wrote:The family member of a British national will only have a right to reside in the UK under the 2006 Regulations if the British national would have a right to reside in the UK under those Regulations if he/she were an EEA national, e.g. because he/she is working or self-sufficient.

Looks like you are not required to pursue on economic activity in the UK after having returned there. You seem to be allowed to be self-sufficient. Possibly doesn't have any bearing on your case though.

Anyway, whilst the UK's interpretation and implementation of Singh is very important to you, what's more important is Singh itself, not least so that you can point out to the UK authorities their mis-application of Singh, where appropriate.

For example, the Singh ruling does not stipulate that you should have been pursuing an economic activity in another Member State for at least six months. The UK added that bit on. But, in fairness, I'm hard-pushed to find anything from the UKBA that says anything about six months. I found this though.

Additionally, the Singh ruling does not stipulate that your marriage should have taken place in the other Member State (or, indeed, anywhere). Another UK fabrication.

andy and ann wrote:Wanderer, I respect what you are saying, but I have lawfully been trying to get a residence card for my wife and have been discriminated against. I believe this to be a special reason to apply early.

I disagree with you here Andy, I'm afraid. The UK is not obliged to facilitate entry and residence for you or your family members an account of the misapplication of EU law by another Member State.

andy and ann wrote:If we are refused, I don't see that it matters as we can then re-apply later, and keep on doing so.

True. You know, if I were a betting man, I'd say if Ann were to apply for an EEA FP now, it'd be refused. You'd then appeal, stating precisely why the ECJ ruling on Singh applies to you and Ann. The appeal would be allowed and she'd be issued with an EEA FP. Could be wrong, but that's my inkling. In which case, apply now. An appeal may take time.

What a fantastic post Benifa! Thank you so much!

It is a huge relief that I wasn't living here illegally as I had previously thought. I still have my rental agreement from the time I spent here. I had come here to start a business with a friend, but it never went anywhere. I realise now that the accountant didn't know what he was talking about and told us it would be too difficult for me to be a partner. It is by the by now anyway.

Your dates are absolutely perfect, I did go to The Philippines and got married there. When I left Bulgaria I went back to the UK for ten days, but everything still comes out below one year. Perfect!

I think it might take a week or so to get all of the paperwork ready, as there are a huge number of translations to be done in the meantime.


What would be great, is if we could get back to the UK in time for my fathers 65th birthday on November 15!


Thankyou once again!

Much as I respect Benifa's knowledge here I have to say it seems more like a lot of ifs and buts and twisting of facts to suit the circs. We all know what an ordeal it's been to get this far, and this so far has been the easy bit - but I am noted for my pessimism.

All I'm saying is don't get over-ethusiastic over posts that suit the answers you want, for me only person has been proved right so far, me! that's it's been a nightmare for u so far!

Good luck tho, I wish you well!

Haha! There is a huge amount of truth in what you say, and I often refer to what you told me a long time ago - it is ok that you know the law, but nobody else does - I have told many people about your comment! but the advice that I have received here has been tremendously good and accurate. Yes I had to fight, but I have been winning.

I have four people now fighting my corner with regard to the residence card, I have no doubt that one or all of them will succeed.

I just cannot see what we have to lose by applying for the family permit soon.

Solvit won't help with regard to the requirement of the Bulgarian Immigration Department to give them a certificate from the UK embassy.

I have no legal basis with which to challenge the Bulgarian advice, the EC Treaty on which EC legislation on free movement is based does not cover issues relating to marriage, I am aware that Member States have national requirements that will apply in respect of marriages contracted in certain countries, I am aware that there is no harmonisation of marriage contract recognition, Directive 2004/38/EC allows for the Bulgarian Authorities to request documentation in support of the existence of a family relationship, it does not state what that document should be.

So need to get that certificate then I guess! Whilst waiting for the translations for the family permit!

Andy, had i known these people were going to make so much fuss, i would have recommended you deposit your marriage certificate at the Foreign Registration Office of the British High commission in the Philippines prior to your travel. Philippine is one of the qualified countries for which this is possible.

Had you done this, the British High Commission would have been able to provide document attesting to the existence or legality of your marriage,as if it took place in the UK.

I am sure you can still do this.

Look at this link and see if it can be of any help to you.

I am sure the responce you got from Solvit is 100% wrong, as the Metock ruling state that it doesn't matter where the marriage took place.

Thanks a lot Obie, the UK embassy here in Sofia have contacted their partners in the UK to see how it can be done. Just awaiting for their reply on it.

Ok, finally I received a reply from the UK embassy in Sofia with regard to the certificate. They cannot issue a certificate, but can write a letter with the following text:

It is not within the province of the British Embassy to pronounce on the validity of any marriage contracted either in the UK or abroad. This can only be determined by a competent court. However, generally speaking, а marriage in the Philllippines will be recognised in the UK as valid provided that it complied with the law of the country where it took place and the couple had the legal capacity to marry under their law(s) of domicile.

I am pretty sure that this won't be good enough for the immigration dept since it is basically a general letter. I wrote back to the woman at SOLVIT and she replied saying she couldn't give me any advice. I have since replied to her and asked her if this is not a matter for solvit since BG immigration are demanding a document which is impossible to obtain, I asked 'are they not causing an undue obstacle?' I didn't receive any reply so I guess that I will not be receiving any help from them.

I can only register my marriage in person in The Philippines, there is no other way to do that.

The other bad news is that the contract from my employer is only up until 30 November. I do begin training on my permanent position on Tuesday and hopefully will receive my new contract soon. I don't think this situation will help with the family permit.

The timeline is as follows: Ann is now 5 months pregnant, so if we need to return to The Philippines this has to happen within four weeks. I won't be able to get the family permit application sorted for maybe one more week.

What happens if (when) the family permit is denied, we will end up overstaying Ann's visa. What problems will this cause?

Thanks for any advice!

Andy, the letter confirms the fact that your marriage is legal in the UK. I find it quite queer that the UK, rather than the Phillipines is been asked to check the authenticity of your marriage. It is outrageously mad.

You just need to consult the Phillipines consulate in Sophia and get a confirmation that your marriage certificate is authentic and fully recognised in the Phillipines.

There should not be a problem with the EEA family permit. you have establish roots in the Phillipine for a long time and you and your wife got married before you came to the UK, so you more or less will be fine. The fact that you have an employment contract will also help immensley.

Perhaps you might need to get a lawyer to deal with these incompetent people. Their behaviour is starting to drive me bananas.

I am sure you will prevail in the end, just have to be patient and determined