E.U States Allowing Visa free Travel-E.U Fam&Residence c

But have you ever lived with him in another member state other than Portugal and then returned to Portugal with him. What I am essentially asking is what kind of residence card do you have? I am aware that Portugal does not make any distinction between national and EU regulations in law.

86ti wrote:But have you ever lived with him in another member state other than Portugal and then returned to Portugal with him. What I am essentially asking is what kind of residence card do you have? I am aware that Portugal does not make any distinction between national and EU regulations in law.

No, we met in Cuba, spent several seasons together, I got pregnant, got married and came to Portugal two years ago, he lived with me here in Portugal about a year (he came from London to here) and the residence document I have is the one that says: residence card for family members of EU

But according to this page a residence card issued under the free movement directive would contain additional information: issued to family members of a national of a European Union country other than Portugal. What I am trying to say here is that I do not believe that you have a legal entitlement to visa free travel with the card you have. But even if you had the problem is that the UK wouldn't accept it and the airlines are instructed accordingly.

The Paris route may work but what is your plan B if it doesn't? If it doesn't work out going to Madrid may have been easier.

86ti wrote:I do not agree with you because Article 5(2) specifically allows member states to require an entrance visa...

5(2) allows states to require entry-visas

2004/38/EC Section 5(2) wrote:Family members who are not nationals of a Member State
shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with
Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with
national law...

while 5(4) immediately limits this right to ask for a visa (read only highlighted parts):

2004/38/EC Section 5(4) wrote:Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

I don´t see how a visa can thus be the ultimate condition...?

The question here is not what the member states are doing but rather what the airlines do or must do. They look into the IATA database, maybe ask the embassy or border police and most likely will get the same answer everywhere: visa required. I think that creates an excuse for them so they are not acting illegally if they deny boarding.

86ti wrote:The question here is not what the member states are doing but rather what the airlines do or must do. They look into the IATA database, maybe ask the embassy or border police and most likely will get the same answer everywhere: visa required. I think that creates an excuse for them so they are not acting illegally if they deny boarding.

That´s what happened here.

Which still doesn´t change the fact that it should not happen, and if the passenger is stopped it´s ILLEGAL.

As I see it, the passenger is legally allowed to enter the destination country.

It doesn´t matter who sais what, or where any of the acting parties (airlines, borderpolice...) get their information from. What matters is: Who is the first person to physically stop the passenger from continuing? Whoever this person is is effectively acting illegally, and this entity (airlinemember = sue the airline, borderpolice = sue the state...) can and should be sued for refunds+compensation.

On a sidenote: I lived in Ireland for a while, and when my Lebanese wife didn´t have her Irish residencecard yet we did manage to travel from Dublin to Brussels. Yes, it was a nightmare, yes it was complicated, yes it involved lots of discussion with many different parties, but in the end it did work!

Our strategy:

• Take passports, marriage certificate and the printed law, relevant passages highlighted.
• Be assertive when dealing with -whoever-
• In our case that was:
• Airline refusing to let us check in
  • Be there as early as possible, first one in the Q
  • If the checkin agent tries to send you away, insist to speak to a supervisor
  • Do not move away from the counter!
  • Tell them you will only move if you get IN WRITING that you were refused boarding, since you need this for your later court claim
    • If they want to write something, it needs to contain the fact that you had passports and the marriage-certificate with you, and that you told them that you want to travel according to 5(4). Otherwise their later excuse will be that you didn´t have some of the above with you!
  • Next they might threaten to call police
  • Tell them that this is no problem, since if they arrest you (taking you forcibly from the counter is effectively an arrest) you will also get in writing why you were removed, which would be equally sufficient for a later court claim
  • In our case, the checkin lady was impressed that we -calmly- didn´t care about the police-threat - some discussions together with her supervisor followed, and we were finally issued boarding passes (Not without a stoopid comment "get a visa next time")
• Since Ireland has no passport checks on departure, our next problem was arrival in Brussels
• Have the law printed&highlighted in the destination language, too.
• We ended up in some back-office in Brussels, where they told us they´ll have to send us back.
• This was then cleared up without too much further hassle.
• Always remain calm, friendly, composed but assertive

86ti wrote:But according to this page a residence card issued under the free movement directive would contain additional information: issued to family members of a national of a European Union country other than Portugal. What I am trying to say here is that I do not believe that you have a legal entitlement to visa free travel with the card you have. But even if you had the problem is that the UK wouldn't accept it and the airlines are instructed accordingly.

The Paris route may work but what is your plan B if it doesn't? If it doesn't work out going to Madrid may have been easier.

This is what exactly the document states(in Portuguese):

Familiar de Cidadão da União Europeia,Nacional de Estado Terceiro(member of a third state)

And states as well this:Lei nº 37/2006 wich is :Regula o exercício do direito de livre circulação e residência dos cidadãos da União Europeia e dos membros das suas famílias no território nacional e transpõe para a ordem jurídica interna a Directiva n.º 2004/38/CE, do Parlamento Europeu e do Conselho, de 29 de Abril

In English:Regulates the right of free movement and residence of EU citizens and members of their families in the country and transposes into national law Directive No 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and the Council of April 29.

My plan B is to return to Portugal and wait until April to process my Portuguese citizenship (for the three years of marriage I have the right to request it) and hopefully in about three months will be ready, that means I have to wait a year to go to London, that's why we want to risk

ca.funke wrote:and if the passenger is stopped it´s ILLEGAL

It is not illegal to deny boarding if the passenger is in violation of the T&Cs which clearly state that it is the responsibility of the passenger to hold a visa if necessary. In this case the airline has no reason to believe that the passenger would not need a visa. You are trying to make the airline the deputy sheriff. Besides, we are having here a discussion that is probably best left to lawyers.

Alhe wrote:My plan B is to return to Portugal and wait until April to process my Portuguese citizenship (for the three years of marriage I have the right to request it) and hopefully in about three months will be ready, that means I have to wait a year to go to London, that's why we want to risk

Hi Alhe,

are you sure that moving to London won´t risk your Portugese citizenship application?

Just saying - since once you have the Portugese citizenship all these problems will be a matter of the past...

...imagine the joy we had on the day my wife was naturalised as a Belgian

86ti wrote:...it is the responsibility of the passenger to hold a visa if necessary...

Sorry for repeating myself, but I think a visa is NOT necessary:

2004/38/EC Section 5(4) wrote:Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

ca.funke wrote:Sorry for repeating myself, but I think a visa is NOT necessary

I guess we now start another cycle of the same arguments...

Alhe wrote:My plan B is to return to Portugal and wait until April to process my Portuguese citizenship (for the three years of marriage I have the right to request it) and hopefully in about three months will be ready, that means I have to wait a year to go to London, that's why we want to risk

Hi Alhe,

I justcame up with a plan C (no guarantees whatsoever, just a thought):

Maybe you can go from >>Portugal to Gibraltar<< first, and then fly from Gibraltar to the UK.

Does anyone have field-experience there?

Entry into Gibraltar is sort of easy, especially when walking. (The more you look like a day-tourist the better, thus it would be good if an EU-citizen(no questions may be asked whatsoever) carries your bags, while you just walk...)

Next step: Flight from Gib to London should be nearly domestic, although that´s the part I´m not sure about?! Does anyone know about that?

Like I said: Just an idea...

86ti wrote:

ca.funke wrote:and if the passenger is stopped it´s ILLEGAL

It is not illegal to deny boarding if the passenger is in violation of the T&Cs which clearly state that it is the responsibility of the passenger to hold a visa if necessary. In this case the airline has no reason to believe that the passenger would not need a visa. You are trying to make the airline the deputy sheriff. Besides, we are having here a discussion that is probably best left to lawyers.

Hmm. But isn't it illegal for airlines (and other commercial/non-govt. entities for that matter) to impede people's rights of freedom of movement? Perhaps suing them to force them to amend their T&Cs to adhere to freedom of movement regulations would help. (their T&Cs are not above the law after all)
I guess it is a good idea for anyone who is going to sue them for refusal of boarding to include this demand as part of the suit.

mastermind wrote:...Perhaps suing them to force them to amend their T&Cs to adhere to freedom of movement regulations would help. (their T&Cs are not above the law after all)...

From all the airlines that I bothered to read the T&C, they say something like "it is the passengers responsibility to have all relevant passports and/or visas where necessary".

For example:

British Airways (quoted from website on 14 August 2011) wrote:13. Travel documents, entry requirements, customs inspection and security screening

13a) General

13a1) You (not us) must:

• check the relevant entry requirements for any country you are visiting and
• present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents needed for your journey.

13a2) You must obey all laws, regulations and orders of any countries you fly from, enter or travel through or in which you are a transit passenger.

13a3) We will not be liable to you if:

• you do not have all necessary passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents
• your passport, visa, health certificates or other travel documents are invalid or out of date or
• you have not obeyed all relevant laws.

13b) You must present to us valid passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents

Before you travel, you must present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents you need for your journey. If we ask, you must:

• allow us to take and keep copies of them and
• deposit your passport or equivalent travel document with a member of the crew of the aircraft for safe custody until the end of the flight.

I see nothing wrong with that.

The thing that´s wrong is that their staff mostly don´t know which are the "relevant entry requirements" for some countries, and based on their ignorance deny boarding...

Clearly not in line with their own T&C.

That´s why I keep repeating myself:

If you are denied boarding while you´re covered by 2004/38/EC it is of the utmost importance to get, in writing, that you

• mentioned 2004/38/EC AND
• travelled together with the EU-partner AND
• had the residence permit with you AND
• had the marriage-certificate with you

because if you don´t and it comes to a court-case, the airline's defence will be: We know the rules, but the passenger didn´t have (pick one of the above) with them

If you don't posess a 4EUFam card (basically spouse of Irish national stamp 4), can you travel to other EU countries with your EU spouse and marriage certificate? I know you are supposed to get a visa but my understanding is under the directive EU citizens and their non-EU family members should be able to travel freely around Europe.

Monifé wrote:If you don't posess a 4EUFam card (basically spouse of Irish national stamp 4), can you travel to other EU countries with your EU spouse and marriage certificate? I know you are supposed to get a visa but my understanding is under the directive EU citizens and their non-EU family members should be able to travel freely around Europe.

Yes. Here a positive report from just today.

86ti wrote:

Monifé wrote:If you don't posess a 4EUFam card (basically spouse of Irish national stamp 4), can you travel to other EU countries with your EU spouse and marriage certificate? I know you are supposed to get a visa but my understanding is under the directive EU citizens and their non-EU family members should be able to travel freely around Europe.

Yes. Here a positive report from just today.

Excellent news. Although would it be very risky? If the country refused you entry, would you be deported? You also run the risk of losing your money on your holiday. But still great news, although I think I would be too much of a coward to try it.

Hi, I am Irish & my husband is Nigerian & has a UK resident card that states that he is a family member of EU National. We were due to fly out to Amsterdam this morning & I had our marriage cert with us & also the print out from the Dutch embassy stating that as a holder of the resident card & travelling with me he did not need a visa. We also had our marriage cert in case of any issues.

However Easyjet refused to let us board & the reason given was that Ducth immigration told them that he still needed a Schengen visa due to his nationality. This came direct from the Easyjet manager.Now i researched this loads & never saw any mention that it was nationality specific, I am both confused & very very angry as this trip was my Christmas present to my husband.

I have just emailed the Dutch embassy, the European commission & Easyjet, are we in the right & if so can we do anything about it?

Hi craftynick,

you were illegally refused boarding!

From what I see it´s pretty much the same scenario as in this thread:
www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=31422

You can and should sue the airline. I hope you won´t let it end with doing nothg, just as in the other thread?

Oh - if you plan to do something, I think you should open a new thread. It´d be pretty unique!

Rgds, Christian

Hi ca.funke, thank you for your confirmation that we were in the right. They really made me doubt myself when it happened but I knew deep down that he had the right to travel with me.

And nope I will certainly not be letting this lie, in my email to the dutch embassy I have asked them to show me exactly where does it state that this rule does not apply to Nigerian citizens as it is certainly is not on their website & definitely not on the page I had printed off & showed to the Easyjet manager. I have also reported the whole incident to the European commission & SOLVIT & have asked them how to confirm I am correct & how I can take this matter further & when I receive confirmation from either them or the dutch I will be consulting a lawyer!

Unfortunately I did not get it in writing from the Easyjet manager why we were refused but i do have her name etc & have also emailed to Easyjet explaining that I want a written explanation from her why we were refused.

craftynick wrote:And nope I will certainly not be letting this lie, in my email to the dutch embassy I have asked them to show me exactly where does it state that this rule does not apply to Nigerian citizens as it is certainly is not on their website & definitely not on the page I had printed off & showed to the Easyjet manager.

What the embassy does, sais or writes on their website is irrelevant. Relevant is the law, and the law (Directive 2004/38/EC) is on your side.

craftynick wrote:I have also reported the whole incident to the European commission & SOLVIT & have asked them how to confirm I am correct & how I can take this matter further & when I receive confirmation from either them or the dutch I will be consulting a lawyer!

If at all, you will barely get a short answer, no detailed information about how to proceed, except the general hint that "in order to secure your rights you will have to go to court". You will gather some first-hand insight into why the EU does not function in its current form.

craftynick wrote:Unfortunately I did not get it in writing from the Easyjet manager why we were refused but i do have her name etc & have also emailed to Easyjet explaining that I want a written explanation from her why we were refused.

This may actually turn out to be a problem: When Easyjet realises that they will loose in court, they will claim that the EU-citizen (you) wasn´t there with the non-EU-citizen (your partner), and alone the non-EU person had no right to travel. That´d be their only way out, and they took this approach in the past.

It all comes down to: Can you reliably prove in court that yee were there together?

Thats my concern, although i have kept our bus tickets to the airport they do not have our names on them. I am thinking of going back out to the airport tomorrow to get it in writing why he was denied, even though i have now emailed easyjet, do you think this is a wise idea??

You will have to prove, in one way or another, that yee showed up at the airport together.

Bustickets, I shall assume, can give an indication, but are not all you need. You need reliable proof, best confirmed by the airline itself.

I would try to get it in writing, however if they did their background checks already, you may be too late now...

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Easyjet have now replied with their reasons for refusing him boarding

1. Mr G did not have a Schenghan Visa to permit travel (which obviously under directive 200/38/EC he shouldnt have needed)
2. Mr G also only had a residence document for Liverpool and his UK entry clearance was out of date. (This is just nonsense as he still has 4 years left on his residency!!)
3. The easyJet agent at Belfast International called Amsterdam immigration but the refused travel for Mr George as the documentation that he had was not sufficient to allow travel. (Not really surprising if they advised him his residency was out of date!!)

They have also confirmed, in writing, that I was there with & had planned to travel along with him. Now that I have mentioned that under this directive that what they did was completely incorrect they have told me they will investigate fully & come back with a response within a week - i await their response

craftynick wrote:come back with a response within a week - i await their response

Their response should include a full refund of the funds you paid, an offer for a complimentary return flight + compensation of some kind.

In all other cases I´d sue them. You should probably win!

Rgds + let us know!
Christian