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why I voted for brexit

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

Obie
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by Obie » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:20 pm

secret.simon wrote: I don't see how you can condemn the British Empire and praise the Brussels Empire. .
There is nothing like Brussels empire, or at least it is nothing in comparison to the British Empire you are seeking to compare or contrast it with.

Unlike the British Empire which was a symbol of oppression, example of which is the Mau mau revolution in Kenya, the Rhodesia situation, the situation in India, some of these nations i have mentioned lost their life and blood to free them self of the effect of the British Empire.

With the EU, memberstates are not forced to join, they apply and they are approved. In the case of Britain, the first application was declined and following a reapplication, they succeeded the second time round.

The problem with the British Empire is that it was impose on its subject, they never voted on it, they never approved it, and were not given an opportunity to hold a referendum as to whether they wish to endure its effect.

For example the Mau Mau were beaten, mutilated, raped and abused in the most horrific way when they sought to rebel against the British empire rule in Kenya not too long ago.

I am sure you would know the situation of Gold Coast and how Kwame Nkruma fought, the situation of the Australian Aborigine.

So i think it is totally wrong, and demonstrate a clear ignorance on your part to compare EU and the British Empire.

You just need to look at the Statement that Teressa May made today about Scotland's Referendum to enhance your understanding of the nature of the empire.

I am not sure which generation you are from, but i guess you are from the 50s or 60s generation, so i expect you should understand this more, than someone like me, form the late 80s generation, who merely read about these horrors.

I do expect you to know better.
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rooibos
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by rooibos » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:06 pm

secret.simon wrote: I don't see how you can condemn the British Empire and praise the Brussels Empire.
Jeez, Simon! I thought you were better than this! How wrong I was!

So, you're saying that Britain was militarily invaded by the European Army, their people raped, beaten and killed, their oil, gold and diamond mines confiscated, their political opponents interned into concentration camps?

Because this is what the good old fashioned British Empire did, not the European Union.

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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by secret.simon » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:23 am

One need not invade and pillage a country to make it a part of an empire. An empire is defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as "a group of countries ruled by a single person, government, or country", while the OED defines it as "An extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state".

Is the EU a group of countries? - I think we can all agree that it is.

Is the EU governed by an oligarchy (Cambridge:"a small group of powerful people"; OED: "A small group of people having control of a country or organization") that can not be got rid of easily? I would say that there are certainly grounds for thinking so.

Does the EU have a single government? - Opinions can differ, but EU law does override any conflicting national laws.

Does the EU have an elite class of people? - EU politicians and civil servants are generally immune from legal action in their home countries unless the EU gives permission. They have their own income tax rates and are immune from national taxation.

Another class that is favoured by the EU are those that we see on these forums. EU citizens who have exercised EU treaty rights are privileged over citizens who haven't.

I think that is enough similarities to suggest a Brussels Empire. One need not be invaded to be a part of an empire.
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by Obie » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:40 am

Well i suppose you are now implicitly withdrawing your comparison of the EU to the british empire.

I believe decency and integrity dictates that a person should be prepared to make concessions when their views and analysis is so flawed and devoid of sense, that no reasonable individual can be expected to express them.

For similar reasons given in my previous post, EU is not an Oligarchy either, but at least that is less insensitive than the inflammatory and baseless comparison you had earlier espoused.

EU has institutions, has parliament, has a court has a council and has a commission. All of these institutions are not controlled by one country.

The Council is represented by all the member states who are equals, the parliament represented by all member states based on their size, the commission represented by all 28 member states. The Court of Justice has 28 judges from Each of the states.
The commission swear allegiance to the CJEU, to uphold the treaties and act in the interest of the EU and not its individual memberstates.

The EU as an institutions is comprised of 28 member states who voluntary joined the EU and decides to confer some of its sovereignty to the EU for the good of all its member states.

It is clearly different from an Oligarchy which is mostly controlled based on wealth and influence, nobility and has little democratic platform.

If by virtue of it seize of an EU country and the amount of money it spends, a particular nation may have more influence, then that is not Oligarchy according to the strict definition of that term.

A nation state cannot be defined as Oligarchy.
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prforyou
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by prforyou » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:45 am

Apart from failed historical arguments that have been proposed here (even the English language evolved from the language of the Saxons and Danish tribes), unfortunately Brexit has closed the wrong borders. The source of (home-grown) terrorism in the UK is that of Commonwealth migration (similar to that in France due to its colonial history with North Africa), as yesterday's events have shown again.

ei
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by ei » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:05 am

Well, I voted Remain and I would again and I hate to be dragged out of EU and lose my rights to live and work in other 27 countries.

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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by ei » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:10 am

nachfee wrote:I am so sorry but your reasons are baseless. Is it a good idea coming here to vent out when this is a website used by many to settle as a EEA? You will get an emotional response... at least, you look like you want to get one.

It is much more factual and realistic to blame your government and your MP (if voted for zero hours contracts) than European citizens, they are the law-makers after all. I highly doubt any person would be happy with an uncertain job, European or non-European. It is quite ludicrous this statement, I have to say.

It is very sad you as a British citizen and still until today a European citizen, has failed to realised the great advantages of being part of the EU such has been able to work and live in 27 other countries, that is something an Australian dreams about. I am a Non-EEA citizen married to a EEA citizen (with British ancestry but decided to stay European) with many European friends here. Not one has claimed benefits, most of them speak at least three languages and are all professionals and do incredible work. Most of them do either charitable work, social work, public sector work (nursing) or tourism. Most of them have left already and after Brexit, it was an exodus, at least in my circle of friends. We are pretty much the last ones here because we have a business. They all left after the 26th of June and we are planning to do the same during the next 2 years.
They are either doing Erasmus (a great opportunity that many British seem to not have enjoyed and probably, know nothing about) and got better jobs in Europe because, believe it or not there are much better jobs in Europe for undergraduate polyglots. They just stayed here because they have friends, loved ones, got married, etc. My friends that left were either single or had no kids... But trust me, those with kids or in relationships are thinking about it, it isn't that difficult to move and the mood it has created, this Brexit, it is far more complicated and sour than the complications relocating to another country brings.

You are talking about a very small group of European citizens when it comes to benefits. In 2015 it was said at least 87% of benefit takers were British citizens. It's all online. Just google it. I highly doubt even half of that number are EU citizens because who would go through paying £1000 to get naturalised?.

Just a side note to clarify naturalisation from a EEA perspective: This can only happen after continuously living here for 6 years. The main four ways to apply as are as follows:
1) and 2) As a self-employed or worker:
Stay here for 5 continuous years (after acquiring EEA2 permit) exercising treaty rights (yes!, paying taxes!) or
3) and 4) As self-sufficient or student (which requires health insurance, yep! against European law, yep! Not cheap!)
So, who would then be going through all these shenanigans for a British passport which still costs £1000? If they still got the right to stay here?
Therefore, most of those "British citizens" getting benefits are either true British or non-EEA (need papers to stay right?).
A small percentage of Europeans applied for British passports, it was seen as a waste of money (of course, not any more)

Benefits for Europeans? Since 2014 (not retrospective), EU citizens do not get more than six-months job seekers allowance and get no housing benefits at all.
Also, if these European citizens were the "scroungers" you make them to be, they would go to Germany or France, their benefit system is far more generous than the British one even so doubling in some aspects. And for family members? I am not entitled to benefits (neither I need them, I rather clean toilets), I have a EEA2 residence card at the moment...
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/be ... -i-qualify

You say you are from Bangladesh. The biggest immigration into the UK is non-EEA citizens specially from India and Pakistan. At the moment, it is Polish people (only 0.5% more than Indians) but for a very very very long time it has been South East Asians, therefore to be annoyed about this is ridiculous. I mean, getting annoyed at people who have been coming here for the past 10 years instead of 50 years? Right...
These is also the part of the world with the most sham marriages to get British papers. When I applied it was bad in the tens of thousands. This is the main reason as to why they ask for so many personal documents (even for EEA applications, it helps) The reason they have cracked down the British immigration law path to get papers it's because of the sham marriages so unfortunately there is your answer.

Integration? I have met a huge amount of people from South East Asia that have been here for decades and can't even speak English. You go to some parts of London and its basically being in Pakistan or India - I understand some English people when they get annoyed about that (then I tell them to blame colonialism) I for one do like globalisation and multiculturalism, I love what London have become - a mini Earth. Though for you to say that Europeans don't integrate is so incredibly rich. I am sure your parents and many people in your community have integrated fine but many haven't, bringing even their tribal thinking into the country, having in-fights in mosques because rival families were living here. I tell you because I know this happened as I have friends who are Muslims and stopped going to the mosque because of this.

Also have you met British migrants abroad? Many don't even speak the language! Going to south Spain is insane how many live in their bubble. My sister lives in Portugal and most of her British friends don't speak the language. I am sure that there are many British who have integrated but it is worth mentioning. I even said to one Englishman "Hola" and the guy flipped because I spoke Spanish to him, "I don't speak Spanish! Don't speak that language to me", I mean WTF? I swear this is a true story. :lol:

Europeans have far more things in common with other Europeans than with South East Asians, I'm sorry.

This was just an opportunity for a minority group to get a threatening minority group out of their way... There is far greater immigration numbers from non-EEA countries than from EEA countries. This is a fact.

Once the whole "blame the EU" thing doesn't work any more, I am sure they will turn to something else. Most probably another immigration group too blame all ills on. Who are second in the immigration list? Pakistanis and Indians and everyone that looks like them.
The whole "Blaming others" it's too much in the air at the moment, it is a lot easier to blame others for our problems than ourselves. We are so contempt with being kicked in the backside all the time by our governments, we are the most compliant people in Europe while our neighbours complain, protest, strike in masses. We have the audacity to then blame those who are working among us than those that are above us making the laws. You couldn't make this up!
So are EU citizens also to blame about the raise on taxes for self-employed? While corporations like Google and Apple have avoided millions in taxes?

What "got you angry" was a reciprocal agreement of which 1 million British citizens are enjoying, whom many enjoy with paying zero in taxes because they are retirees and use their health system with no health insurance. If you want to come here as a self-sufficient EEA citizen (or student), you HAVE to - by law - have a Health insurance to be able to apply for a permanent residence 5 years later. That law is very anti-European law and many people tried to argue against it with little effect. This law is not implemented in France, Spain, where many British live.

What's the problem with sending money back home? You think Europeans live for free here and pay no council tax, no tv license, no VAT, no bills, no phone contracts, no transport, no food, no local entertainment, no restaurants, nothing? ALL the money is send back home? I HIGHLY doubt that.

Have you read about Cambridge Analytica, ownd by a friend of Nigel farage, which helped fueled emotional propaganda in the UK and the US by getting into your social media accounts?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-trump

In any case, I hope it goes well. It does annoy me people that wish for the worst to proof their point. I do think it will be a very very difficult deal agreement and talks - Greenland took ages and Canada as well.. This will be far more complicated that any of the current 28 nations have ever experienced. I highly doubt it will take 2 years. As for immigration, this will stop EU immigration in 2 years but it will not stop immigration from outside the EU which is still higher.

I wonder Zakir, as you are Bangladeshi, I assume you are Muslim. Do you agree with the witch-hunt the Muslims are suffering now in most of the world because of the ideology of a few? How do you feel about the generalisation of all Muslims? Or the travel ban in the US?
Isn't it a result of pure ignorance, misinterpretation and misinformation?
I think it ring bells with Europeans and the generalisation that they "all steal jobs" and "get benefits".
If anything these two parallels teaches us all how important is to seek different media outlets to get slightly closer to the truth and how it is our responsibility to find, seek and get as much information to formulate our own ideas.
Sorry for the long post.
Best of luck
Totally agree with you.

ei
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by ei » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:16 am

prforyou wrote:Apart from failed historical arguments that have been proposed here (even the English language evolved from the language of the Saxons and Danish tribes), unfortunately Brexit has closed the wrong borders. The source of (home-grown) terrorism in the UK is that of Commonwealth migration (similar to that in France due to its colonial history with North Africa), as yesterday's events have shown again.
+1

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Casa
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by Casa » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:56 am

ei wrote:
prforyou wrote:Apart from failed historical arguments that have been proposed here (even the English language evolved from the language of the Saxons and Danish tribes), unfortunately Brexit has closed the wrong borders. The source of (home-grown) terrorism in the UK is that of Commonwealth migration (similar to that in France due to its colonial history with North Africa), as yesterday's events have shown again.
+1
Not that simple. In this case the terrorist Adrian Russell Ajao was born in Kent and grew up in Sussex.
(Casa, not CR001)
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by Obie » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:08 pm

prforyou wrote:Apart from failed historical arguments that have been proposed here (even the English language evolved from the language of the Saxons and Danish tribes), unfortunately Brexit has closed the wrong borders. The source of (home-grown) terrorism in the UK is that of Commonwealth migration (similar to that in France due to its colonial history with North Africa), as yesterday's events have shown again.
Important to note that the people who carry out these atrocities from 7/7 to this recent ones, are not migrant, but British Citizen, people who were born here, went to same nursery , primary and secondary schools with their compatriot, enjoyed the winter cold and the summer warmth with their compatriots, in this country.



They are to all intents and purpose British, unless of course Britishness is defined by the colour of a person's skin, I am of the view that these people are British in every sense of the word.

The appear to feel detached or ostracised by their nation. The government needs to examine the reasons why they are and find means of engaging these people.

Mr Masood is a person of dual heritage, born of a Caucasian woman, from a middle class background, has degree in Economics. He did not come from the Middle East or the former commonwealth . He was an home grown person.
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by Wise » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:20 pm

Obei, in addition to your last paragraph.

That was the reason why it takes until when the PM make speech on the incident before we are able to know you committed the evil act. Otherwise all these so call useless news papers would have say something totally different in paper's headline.
It is really good to help and everyone deserve to be respected in life. Good luck.

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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by Casa » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:31 pm

Wise wrote:Obei, in addition to your last paragraph.

That was the reason why it takes until when the PM make speech on the incident before we are able to know you committed the evil act. Otherwise all these so call useless news papers would have say something totally different in paper's headline.
You may want to rephrase your post. :idea:
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by Obie » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:02 pm

Well i guess Mrs May and her guards were busy taking cover in the House of Commons. I saw her on a sky video trying to find an hiding place like a headless chicken. I guess giving a speech was the last on her list of priorities.

Surprising how coward she can be. After seeing her on video doing immigration raid in Slough and going through that pakistan woman's properties, and all her tough talk on brexit, and vilification of Immigrant, it is surprising how a dead mentally distrub man can scare Mrs May so much.
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secret.simon
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by secret.simon » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:46 pm

I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

mkhan2525
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by mkhan2525 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:25 pm

I guess Mrs May was never cut out to be PM, infact she has proven to be one of the worst choices to lead the country. Her track record as Home secretary was appaling to say the least. We should have just stuck with Cameron.

I hope Brexit will damage her and her partys chance of wining the next election.

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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by secret.simon » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:14 am

mkhan2525 wrote:I hope Brexit will damage her and her partys chance of wining the next election.
Like Margaret Thatcher, she may be polarising, but like her, she is also a case of TINA (There Is No Alternative).

Neither Corbyn nor Farron nor Farage inspire any confidence. By definition (in the title of her party's name), Nicola Sturgeon rules herself out as Prime Minister for the UK. Ruth Davidson of the Scottish Conservatives could be a possible contender, but is likely to sit out the Brexit storm.

As regards whether she was cut out to be PM, well, her party leads in the opinion polls by a margin of at least 10% (with upto 19% in one poll). So, a significant number of people do think that she *is* the best alternative for Prime Minister. A ComRes opinion poll found that most people thought that Theresa May is more in touch with “ordinary British people” than her predecessor David Cameron.

She survived the Home Office with one of the longest tenures on record. The Home Office is the graveyard of ministerial ambition. The Home Secretary has to deal with immigration (a toxic topic), the police (the crime statistics, etc) and until 2005, the prisons and judiciary. That she survived six years in that role is in itself a testament to her ability to manage a toxic mix of subjects.
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by mkhan2525 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:47 pm

secret.simon wrote:
mkhan2525 wrote:I hope Brexit will damage her and her partys chance of wining the next election.
Like Margaret Thatcher, she may be polarising, but like her, she is also a case of TINA (There Is No Alternative).

Neither Corbyn nor Farron nor Farage inspire any confidence. By definition (in the title of her party's name), Nicola Sturgeon rules herself out as Prime Minister for the UK. Ruth Davidson of the Scottish Conservatives could be a possible contender, but is likely to sit out the Brexit storm.

As regards whether she was cut out to be PM, well, her party leads in the opinion polls by a margin of at least 10% (with upto 19% in one poll). So, a significant number of people do think that she *is* the best alternative for Prime Minister. A ComRes opinion poll found that most people thought that Theresa May is more in touch with “ordinary British people” than her predecessor David Cameron.

She survived the Home Office with one of the longest tenures on record. The Home Office is the graveyard of ministerial ambition. The Home Secretary has to deal with immigration (a toxic topic), the police (the crime statistics, etc) and until 2005, the prisons and judiciary. That she survived six years in that role is in itself a testament to her ability to manage a toxic mix of subjects.
If a general election were to be held tomorrow the Tory party is very likely to win although polls have been known to be incorrect at times. Contrast this period of time to that of Autumn 2018 when the so called "have your cake and eat it" deal doesn't materialise and they leave without a deal, public opnion
will shift against the party. At that point the public will look for alternatives and they will not necessarily look at who is delivering the alterative therefore I wouldn't rule out a possibility of another Labour government under Corbyn or a Labour coaltion of some sort with the Lib Dems perhaps.

As for her ability and achivements during her six year reign as Home Secretary, I will leave others to judge for themeselves.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/t ... assuring/#

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ry-tell-us

https://reaction.life/theresa-may-faile ... choice-pm/

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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by rooibos » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:18 pm

Obie wrote:, it is surprising how a dead mentally distrub man can scare Mrs May so much.
Don't be so harsh on Boris Johnson!

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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by secret.simon » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:54 pm

Reviving this thread to link to this interesting piece by Janan Ganesh of the FT on Theresa May.
May is the most culturally conservative leader since Thatcher wrote:She is a believer in things. She has her own view of the world and it comes, if not from scripture, then at least from the Anglican cast of mind.

She favours a gentle society over a dynamic one, views the market with the suspicion of a mild social democrat and takes nationhood more seriously than the universalist end of Christianity tends to. None of these beliefs are extreme but they are held with enough strength to drive the government.
...
This is bitter news for the liberal-minded but Britain has its most culturally conservative leader since at least Margaret Thatcher and, given the Tory’s enthusiasm for markets, perhaps before her, too.
...
To see this government’s work as the sum of outside pressures is to patronise and exonerate Mrs May all at once. It is worse than you think. She believes in it.
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Re: why I voted for brexit

Post by ZeePrime » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:38 pm

Ah! These Shrodinger EU expats.
At the same time stealing jobs and claiming for benefits...

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