ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Belgian visa in London - what a nightmare

Immigration to European countries, don't post UK or Ireland related topics!

Moderators: Casa, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, Administrator

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Belgian visa in London - what a nightmare

Post by murielvcb » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:35 pm

Hi,

I have been reading through the forum for an hour now, and noticed that a lot of people were unhappy with the service that the Belgian Embassy delivers with regards to visas.

I am a Belgian citizen, living and working in the UK since 2004.
I am married to an Algerian citizen. We wanted to go to Belgium to see my family and friends. We have (well, my husband) applied 3 times for a visa, 3 times it has been declined. They always asked a lot of question: the reason why he wants to go to Belgium, a letter of invitation from friends, Eurostar bookings, even his contract of employment and bank statements.

Decision with regards to the visa are taken in Brussels (Office des Etrangers) because I am a Belgian citizen.

I know there is a right, for a non-EU citizen married to a EU citizens, to travel freely across Europe, but I didn't know how to let these people know that they were wrong about their decisions.

Luckily, your website had tought me a lot and I will write tomorrow to the Office des Etrangers and also complain to the EU Ombudsman, hoping that this will change in the future. I really feel ashamed of being Belgian when I see that, as capital of Europe, they are not able to respect the laws that they put in place.

Thank you for all your help.

acme4242
Senior Member
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Post by acme4242 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:00 am

Seems you may need to show the Belgium Embassy staff in London the Belgian and EU Law.

[quote="Belgium Law study, EU directive 2004/38/EC"]
The Belgian legislation also applies to family members
of a Belgian citizen because Article 40 ter LAT explicitly provides: “Les dispositions de ce chapitre
qui sont applicables aux membres de la famille du citoyen de l'Union qu'ils accompagnent ou
rejoignent, sont applicables aux membres de la famille d'un Belge qu'ils accompagnent ou rejoignent.
En ce qui concerne les ascendants visés à l'article 40bis, § 2, alinéa 1er, 4°, le Belge doit démontrer
qu'il dispose de moyens de subsistance stables, réguliers et suffisants pour qu'ils ne deviennent pas
une charge pour les pouvoirs publics pendant leur séjour dans le Royaume, ainsi que d'une assurance
maladie couvrant les risques en Belgique pour les membres de la famille visésâ€

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:27 pm

Hi acme4242,

Thank you very much for your post. It helps me a lot and I will now write to the Office des Etrangers and the Belgian Embassy here in London.

The first time we introduced the application, we provided everything they asked for because we thought it was usual practice.
Visa was refused because my husband's passport was running out of validity.
Fair enough. We extended his passport and introduced a second application. We asked the lady at the Embassy if we needed to supply any additional documents, and she said that they had already everything and there was no need for more documents. The visa was then refused because of lack of documentation!!!!! There clearly seem to be a problem of communication between the Embassy and Brussels. Because the third application has been refused on the same grounds. I really don't understand why the can't just apply the law and stop wasting people's time and energy.

I will post here the reply I hope to get from them.

ca.funke
Moderator
Posts: 1414
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:05 am
Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)
Belgium

Post by ca.funke » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:12 am

Hi murielvcb,

sounds too familiar, I´m Belgian too and my wife and me went through similar crap in Dublin.

Did you ever consider trying to >>travel without visa<<?

Furthermore I´d really like to know if they ever charged you a penny, since that´d be wrong/illegal too!

Good luck in getting home together with your wife!

Rgds from Switzerland,
Christian

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:48 pm

Hi Christian,

Thank you for your post.
I am glad (well, if I can say so!!!!) that we are not the only ones to face these problems as I thought, for a moment, that my husband's nationality in itself was the problem.

They didn't charge a penny for the application, but at the end, it costed us a lot of money as we have always to take half a day off to be able to go the embassy because of their opening hours. I could accept it one time, but three times, that is really too much. Did your wife finally get her visa?

I just went through the motivation of their refusal and it is really unacceptable. They are saying that we didn't provide "une attestation recente de conges couvrant la periode du sejour"; they are asking for "preuve d'une activite lucrative legale", etc, etc.
We did come, the first time, with all these papers, the Embassy told us that we didn't need anything of these as my husband is a family member of a EU resident. Finally, they based their refusal only upon all the papers that were, according to them, missing. There really seem to be a big lack of communication between the Office des Etrangers and the Belgian Embassies in Europe.

It is really disappointing to see that we, as capital of Europe, are so little aware of the EU regulations.

Thank you for your testimony and I really would appreciate to know if and how you managed to get your wife's visa at the end.

Regards from London,

Muriel

ca.funke
Moderator
Posts: 1414
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:05 am
Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)
Belgium

Post by ca.funke » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:23 am

murielvcb wrote:Thank you for your testimony and I really would appreciate to know if and how you managed to get your wife's visa at the end.
Hi murielvcb,

we managed several times in several ways...
  • We travelled without visa. It worked.
    • We did get stuck both in Ireland on check-in (with the airline), and also on arrival (with Belgian border officials). However, I had a copy of the law with me (in English, Dutch and French), and insisted each time that I´m not leaving without having written confirmation that we were turned away, which I´d need to sue them...
    • Ryanair first refused both boarding AND written confirmation. So I told them the only way to make us leave the check-in desk would be to get the police to arrest us, whose report we would then use for suing... After some telephoning and clarifying we were finally admitted on board :)
  • We got a Schengen-visa from the Austrian embassy in Dublin. That was the easiest process ever. (no questions, 2 passports & marriage-certificate --> 3 months multiple)
  • Later I insisted with the Belgian embassy to get a visa, providing only our passports and our marriage-certificate, and nothing else. When they refused, I sent a complaint about the embassy to the ministry of foreign affairs in Brussels. (After some insisting) they replied that they´ll talk to the embassy in Dublin. I got the name of someone in the ministry, and I filed our next application with an accompanying letter, telling them to issue the visa for 6 months, multiple, without asking for any more documents, and any questions should be directed towards this person in the ministry. And voilà.
Good luck with all your travels!

vinny
Moderator
Posts: 33338
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:58 pm

Post by vinny » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:41 am

Well done!
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:21 am

Hi ca.Funke,

Thanks for all this information.

I've now written to the Office des Etrangers in Brussels, explaining them why my husband should not be refused a visa. 2 pages, detailing every argument they mentioned to justify their refusal. I have just now filled in a complain on the Solvit website, because I am really surprised by the number of people who are living the same situation as we are and this has to stop.

European legislation has to be respected and something needs to be done to stop Belgium breaching the law because of... incompetence???? lack of willingness???? maybe both????

Muriel

novita
Newly Registered
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:59 pm

Post by novita » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:01 pm

I am happy I have found a topic addressing the issues of belgian visas. I am a non-eu spouse of a british citizen and I have a spouse visa which is expiring next year. My husband started a job in brussels in June last year and in July I applied for a family reunification visa(D-visa) and uptil date they haven't made any decision. When I made enquiries they said the decision lies with the ministry of interior in Belgium. I husband have been chasing the ministry of interior and not withstanding the fact that they put you on hold for along period of time,they don't even give you any update about your case.They are so rude and the last information my husband got was that a decision has not been made yet and they don't know when that will happen. It's been eight good months I have been waiting.

Lately, my husband who is fed up of all this said he will just come and pick us (we have 2 children) and drive to brussels. How feasable is this without me having a schengen visa? I really do not know what to do. ca.funke you said you managed to travel without a visa how did the belgian immigration officers let you in without a visa?

86ti
Diamond Member
Posts: 2760
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:07 am

Post by 86ti » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:19 pm

novita wrote:how did the belgian immigration officers let you in without a visa?
You don't have to enter through Belgium. Some reports here say there is no trouble with the French.

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:21 pm

Hi Novita,

I am so sorry about what happens to you, and really, once again, they show their incompetence and non-respect of EU citizens rights.

As far as I have understood, you can travel with your husband, who is a EU citizen, through Europe without any problems, as long as you have a valid passport and your marriage certificate. As ca.funke said, you need to have the Directive 2004/38/EC with you, in French, English and Dutch, just to be sure!!!!

We have been told, at the Belgian embassy, that travelling with your EU spouse, carrying your marriage certificate, is not a problem. They have to let you in.

Are your children British?
Have you tried to apply for a Schengen visa via another Embassy? Ca.funke mentioned that the Austrian Embassy is less complicated than France or Belgium. Maybe you could try...

Have you tried to complain through Solvit website? I have understood this morning that it might take a while (up to 10 weeks) before they come back to you, but I think it is worthwhile trying.

Please keep us posted on the follow-up of your issue. It could be of help for others.

Thanks,

Muriel

86ti
Diamond Member
Posts: 2760
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:07 am

Post by 86ti » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:30 pm

murielvcb wrote:We have been told, at the Belgian embassy, that travelling with your EU spouse, carrying your marriage certificate, is not a problem. They have to let you in.
That they should just know too well. After all it was the Belgian state who lost the MRAX case.
murielvcb wrote:Have you tried to apply for a Schengen visa via another Embassy? Ca.funke mentioned that the Austrian Embassy is less complicated than France or Belgium.
That was Ireland. In the UK better try with the Germans or the French.

novita
Newly Registered
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:59 pm

Post by novita » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:05 pm

thank you all for your sympathy.The Belgium embassy is still in possession of my mariage certificate and passport. When I was applying via the VFS in London they told me my application will be considered withdrawn if I have to collect my passeport and mariage certificate at the same time.It's because I dont have those vital documents that I never tried any other embassy. But even if I have to do so what proof do I have that the French embassy for example will issue me a visa? I have heard the schengen area have share the same database and I am sure the french will know that I have tried Belgium with no success.

To be honest I am seriously condering collecting my documents from that embassy and apply for my residence card while in Belgium. Somebody asked if my children are british,yes they are. I have two options here either driving from London to Belgium via France with my family and try and see if they will allow me in the schengen area without a visa or Travelling to the Czech Republic where I dont need a visa. I believe if I am already in the schengen I can travel to Belgium as there is supposed to be no border contril in the schengen area. Please correct me if I am wrong.

mcovet
BANNED
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:00 pm

Post by mcovet » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:58 pm

86ti correctly suggested it, Just go through France via Eurostar and then drive to Belgium (while the whole thing with the Solvit complaint does not get resolved).

The French know the law well and all you need is the Marriage Certificate, your Belgian passport and your hubby's passport with the UK issued Residence Card (the last bit is illegally requested, but helps).

And, voila!

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:55 pm

Just received an email from Solvit (that was quick because I submitted the form yesterday!)
Here it is:

I must first of all advise that your husband does not have the right to move freely throughout the EU. The right is for you to be accompanied by your husband, your right to be with your family members. Therefore, in line with Article 3 of Directive 2004/38/EC, your husband would need to present evidence that he is travelling either with you, or to meet you in Belgium, in order for the Belgian Authorities to be satisfied that he is eligible to obtain a visa under the Directive.

Can you please confirm that, when you made your applications, you enclosed details of your travel arrangements.


I have to say that I am more than confused now!

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:06 pm

And here is another email from Solvit:

Article 3 of the Directive does state that, in order for a citizen to demonstrate eligibility to apply for rights under the Directive, they need to demonstrate that, if the family member of an EU national, they are either travelling with, or to meet, their EU family member.

I do appreciate that it is confusing. I shall check my understanding, and hope to respond to you shortly.


Is there anybody who could be of some help to understand what is happening?

Thanks.

86ti
Diamond Member
Posts: 2760
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:07 am

Post by 86ti » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:16 pm

What exactly is confusing? They are correctly citing the Directive. Your spouse can only make use of it when you are either travelling together or your spouse is to join you later. If your spouse has a residence card (I can't spot what current leave he has from your previous postings) you wouldn't need a visa in those circumstances.

Is you plan to travel together?

acme4242
Senior Member
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Post by acme4242 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:26 pm

murielvcb wrote:Just received an email from Solvit (that was quick because I submitted the form yesterday!)
Here it is:
solvit wrote:I must first of all advise that your husband does not have the right to move freely throughout the EU. The right is for you to be accompanied by your husband, your right to be with your family members. Therefore, in line with Article 3 of Directive 2004/38/EC, your husband would need to present evidence that he is travelling either with you, or to meet you in Belgium, in order for the Belgian Authorities to be satisfied that he is eligible to obtain a visa under the Directive.

Can you please confirm that, when you made your applications, you enclosed details of your travel arrangements.
I have to say that I am more than confused now!
it is quite disheartening, read more >here<

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:28 pm

On the Residence Documentation he has in his passport, which is valid for 5 years, it is mentioned:

"residence card of a family member of a EEA national".

I am sorry, I might have misunderstood. It thus means that we always have to travel together inside the EU? But he went to Switzerland with a Schengen visa without me, and didn't have any problem to get the visa. We didn't have to supply nothing else than our 2 passports and marriage certificate.

86ti
Diamond Member
Posts: 2760
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:07 am

Post by 86ti » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:39 pm

Yes, if you travel together on the residence card you should not need an additional visa (except to Switzerland because it is not a member of the EEA basically). Member states may issue visas to family members under relaxed conditions (e.g. the Germans here in the UK do it) but that does not mean that you have a legal entitlement to it. If the family member travels alone they will need a visa in their own right just as if they weren't married to an EEA national. I agree it doesn't always make sense esp. in the case a visa is still valid from a previous joint application.

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:40 pm

To acme4242

Thanks for the link.

86ti
Diamond Member
Posts: 2760
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:07 am

Post by 86ti » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:41 pm

To clarify: there is no legal entitlement to the relaxed procedure if the non-EEA national travels alone.

murielvcb
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm
Location: e.g. London or SW1

Post by murielvcb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:50 pm

Thanks 86ti for your clarification.

ca.funke
Moderator
Posts: 1414
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:05 am
Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)
Belgium

Post by ca.funke » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:23 pm

novita wrote:How feasable is this without me having a schengen visa? I really do not know what to do. ca.funke you said you managed to travel without a visa how did the belgian immigration officers let you in without a visa?
What I did is all in the following post:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 335#247335

It´s very feasible to travel without a visa, but only both partners TOGETHER.

ca.funke
Moderator
Posts: 1414
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:05 am
Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)
Belgium

Post by ca.funke » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:03 pm

murielvcb wrote:Just received an email from Solvit (that was quick because I submitted the form yesterday!)
Here it is:

I must first of all advise that your husband does not have the right to move freely throughout the EU. The right is for you to be accompanied by your husband, your right to be with your family members. Therefore, in line with Article 3 of Directive 2004/38/EC, your husband would need to present evidence that he is travelling either with you, or to meet you in Belgium, in order for the Belgian Authorities to be satisfied that he is eligible to obtain a visa under the Directive.

Can you please confirm that, when you made your applications, you enclosed details of your travel arrangements.


I have to say that I am more than confused now!
No need to be confused.

The law is written in a very unclear, complicated manner, which doesn´t allow anyone to understand it, not me, not you, not the EU who designed it, not the governments affected and -last but not least- not the borderguards who should base their decisions on it.

First of all it´s a good idea to have a copy of the law handy:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/sit ... 350048.pdf

Now we can dig into it:

Article 10 proposes that family-members of EU-citizens should be issued a residence card:
Article 10
Issue of residence cards

1. The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application. A certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued immediately.

2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall require presentation of the following documents:
(a) a valid passport;
(b) a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
(...some more stuff follows, which regulates other relations than "married")
Now we come to "Entry", which is regulated in Article 5:
(I´m deleting irrelevant parts, inserting (...), always read the original ;) )
Article 5
Right of entry

1. (...)Member States shall grant (...) family members who are not
nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid
passport.(...)

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State
shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with
Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with
national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of
the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt
such family members from the visa requirement.
Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain
the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as
soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit
stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals
of a Member State provided that they present the residence
card provided for in Article 10.

4. Where (...) a family member who is not a
national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel
documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member
State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such
persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary
documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable
period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that
they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

5. (...)
My personal summary is:

1. If you have a ‘Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen’ (Art. 10) you don´t need any visa for anywhere in the EU (Art. 5, section 2).

2. You can always get a visa, free of charge, through an accelerated procedure (Art. 5, section 2).

3. Even if you have no visa, you can prove in any other suitable way that you are covered by this law, and hence travel without visa (Art. 5, section 4).

I hope this answers your question?

PS - this does not discuss all the ambiguities which are currently discussed between the EU, different governments and others - this is only my interpretation, but so far I managed to talk everyone (Ryanair, borderguards) into it...

Locked