Surrinder Singh route

[sarah82]

would really like advice on a couple of questions if possible.

firstly my husband now has a schengen visa and we are preparing to leave here (morocco) shortly.

I'm born in UK to an English parent and an Irish parent.

Am entitled to dual nationality, but at the moment only active passport I have is an Irish one.
1) If I work for 6 months in an EU country, (but entered on my Irish passport) would I have to have a British passport only when I apply for the Eea Fp for my husband to move with me back to the UK? Or before I start employment should I have the British passport so I am registered as a British national working and not as an Irish national working?

2) Do we have to have health insurance whilst we are living/working in the host country?

3) My husband's schengen visa was issued by Italy but a member of our family now has a reliable job for me in Holland, would it be ok to just go straight to Holland together from Morocco? Or is it essential that we first enter Italy?

Any help much appreciated!

[Monifé]

First question, what is your nationality on your birth certificate? If it is Irish, then all you need to do is apply for an EEA family permit as the spouse of Irish national (moving to the UK).

If it is British, then you could have problems due to the recent judgement of the McCarthy case. If you are planning to use Surinder Singh, you should use your British passport and keep all evidence of you working and living in Holland. You will then return to the UK and your husband would/should be covered under EU law as the spouse of an economic migrant worker.

[nonspecifics]

Stick to the Irish passport if you can and follow the advice of Monife.

British passport holders get treated as second-class citizens in their own country.

You will have more rights and less hassle as an EEA national in the UK using EU law for immigration purposes.

Regarding health insurance:

For the first 90 days in host country: the EEA national and family members do not have to prove they are exercising Treaty Rights, so don't need Comprehensive sickness insurance.

After 90 Days: Workers / jobseekers do not need to provide proof of Comprehensive sickness insurance (CSI), cos they don't need it to be exercising Treaty Rights.

If you are student / self-sufficient / economically inactive then you need CSI for the EEA national and all family members ( even if family members work) and sufficient funds without relyiance on public funds ( basically, means-tested social security benefits and the NHS.)

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If you are unfortunate and have to use the Surinder Singh route, again follow the advice of Monife.

I would add to that: get EHIC card too, if you can, in that host country ( the Netherland in your case) BEFORE you then move to the UK, so that Dutch EHIC card can be your CSI cover - in case there are times in the future when you could be economically inactive.

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Again, great advice from Monife which I will add to:

Keep all paperwork.

Keep all paperwork in the UK too, cos five years down the line if you want permanent residence, UKBA will then tell you to prove five continuous years of exercising Treaty Rights.

Five years of payslips, tenancy agreements, bank statements etc etc.

[sarah82]

I wonder if you may be able to offer me further advice.
as i'm still unclear and confused on this part.
I am currently in The Netherlands with my husband who is a third country national, He entered the Netherlands on a schengen visa granted due to him accompanying his EU spouse.

I am born in the UK to an English mother and an Irish father so a dual national if I choose.

I have an offer of employment and an address in the Netherlands but have postponed registering myself as of yet because at the moment I have no British passport only an Irish one.

Perhaps I understand wrongly but I could not 'exercise treaty rights' in the UK as an Irish national as the UK is where I was born and lived my entire life.

So if 'exercising treaty rights' in the Netherlands for 6 months or more and then returning to the UK with my spouse under EC law, would there be an issue if I have been registered as an Irish national whilst working in The Netherlands? As I wouldn't be a returning resident(?)

In short is it imperative that I obtain a British passport before registering my residence and employment in the Netherlands if it is my goal to return to the UK in the near future?

[vinny]

You're British with, or without, a British passport. I think that as long as 9 is satisfied, your family members should be able to apply for an EEA family permit under the EEA regulations. Keep all evidence of working in the Netherlands, as previously suggested.

[sarah82]

So they couldn't try to say that I don't count under the surinder singh ruling as I've registered as an Irish national in the Netherlands and not as a British national?

[vinny]

If they claim that you're not British, then the surinder singh route would be unnecessary anyway?

[sarah82]

I see, so whichever way they view it we'd be granted an eea fp and once in the uk a residence card?

[dotsystem]

British passport holders get treated as second-class citizens in their own country.

Not when the british spouse has genuinely worked or self employed in another member state. am a spouse of british national and the whole process has been fast and straight forward so far.

[sarah82]

So what if the british national has genuinely worked abroad but on an Irish passport? what differeneces and obstacles would they face when returning to th uk with non eea spouse?

[alekos]

You're British with, or without, a British passport. I think that as long as 9 is satisfied, your family members should be able to apply for an EEA family permit under the EEA regulations. Keep all evidence of working in the Netherlands, as previously suggested.

If you have exercised treaty rights in another member state, keep the evidence, that's all you need. Apply for FP, once in the UK apply for RC so long as you're exercising treaty rights.

The process should be straightforward, accelerated and free of charge.

[sarah82]

so don't bother getting a british passport before registering as employed in the Netherlands? And apply for the fp with my current irish passport?

[alekos]

so don't bother getting a british passport before registering as employed in the Netherlands? And apply for the fp with my current irish passport?

You don't need to have a British passport to move to the UK. Move to the Netherlands, get yourself a job, enjoy your time there, make friends there, have a life there. If you really feel like returning to Old Blighty after having exercised treaty rights for 6 or more months in the Netherlands, do come back.

Get your hubby a FP and fly over. In the EU, all passports are accepted. Stick with the Irish one, it should be fine.

[nonspecifics]

@Dotsystem

If you are British you need to prove you were exercising Treaty Rights abroad. If you are a foreigner EEA national, you don't need to prove that, before you are allowed to bring your spouse to the UK.

So, yes, I don't disagree with what you said. I am pleased you had no problems.

But the fact that when a British citizen has to prove they have been working abroad and a foreigner does not, I think it proves what I said: that being British is worse than being a foreigner EEA national in dealing with the Govt of Britain.

@ Sarah82: If it were me, I would never mention the British birth certificate and just present my Irish passport. I would not sign the form saying I am British.

The famous Duke of Wellington told a dinner guest he was born in Ireland, so the other dinner guest said: Oh, so you are Irish!

The Duke replied: Just because someone is born in a stable it does not make them a horse.

Well, I would say the same if it ever came out about the birth certificate.

[sarah82]

@ nonspecifics

So if they did find out that I am also British and born and lived all my life in the UK, but exercised treaty rights using an Irish passport in the Netherlands, that wouldn't complicate matters in getting the FP?

[alekos]

@Dotsystem

If you are British you need to prove you were exercising Treaty Rights abroad. If you are a foreigner EEA national, you don't need to prove that, before you are allowed to bring your spouse to the UK.

So, yes, I don't disagree with what you said. I am pleased you had no problems.

But the fact that when a British citizen has to prove they have been working abroad and a foreigner does not, I think it proves what I said: that being British is worse than being a foreigner EEA national in dealing with the Govt of Britain.

The same applies if an EEA national wants to move to their country of origin with a nonEEA family member.

@ Sarah82: If it were me, I would never mention the British birth certificate and just present my Irish passport. I would not sign the form saying I am British.

The famous Duke of Wellington told a dinner guest he was born in Ireland, so the other dinner guest said: Oh, so you are Irish!

The Duke replied: Just because someone is born in a stable it does not make them a horse.

Well, I would say the same if it ever came out about the birth certificate.

If the question in the form is: Are you a British citizen? The answer is, Do not lie.

[alekos]

@sarah82 have a look here http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ly-permit/

It really is not complicated. You will be a British citizen who has exercised treaty rights in another EEA member state. When returning to the UK, you are simply continuing to exercise treaty rights.

[sarah82]

Thanks for your help alekos. sorry i know i must sound like a right dimwit! but just to clarify registered as an irish national in full time employment in the Netherlands, i would still be a british citizen who has exercised treaty rights in a member state and is now returning to the UK?

Also does the EEA FP give my non-eu husband the right to work straight away or would i myself have to first get employed once back in UK and then apply for the RC?

Is it only the RC that gives right to work to the non eea family member and not the initial FP?

Also payslips, registration documents from town hall, all these things from the Netherlands should be kept and submitted with the EEA FP application? what about health insurance to enter UK on the FP? is that required?

Many Thanks!

[nonspecifics]

@sarah82 I just read you said you were born in the UK, I forgot you said that you had lived and worked there too.

If you have lived and worked in the UK then you are on all the Government's cross-checking, "Big Brother's watching You" surveillance computers, so in that case my previous discussion would not be a good idea. Sorry, but you are definitely British and will have to deal with the problems that creates.

I'm not suggesting anyone lies or tries to cheat the system to get something they are not entitled to.

If I understand it right, you haven't yet exercised Treaty Rights by working in another EEA country, just about to do it.

In your case, you are wanting to sponsor your non-EEA spouse, so it's not worth the risk causing any problems when you can qualify by exercising Treaty Rights in another EEA country then apply as a returning British citizen.

Also, on further thought, there will be the Residence Card application forms to deal with in the future, cos the FP is only for 6 months.

@Alekos, yes you are correct about the other EEA Govts do the same thing -treating their own citizens less favourably. My complaint is not against foreigners having those rights.

My complaint is that national Govts make their own citizens have less rights or more hurdles to jump through.

[nonspecifics]

If you are going to come to the UK from the Netherlands get Netherlands EHIC cards so that saves you from buying private health insurance in the UK. In case you aren't working that's your CSI as periods as self-sufficient.

Also, separate from immigration rules, the NHS has it's own entitlement rules, so you want to make sure you and your spouse will be entitled to health care when you return to the UK.

Maybe this thread is of interest too:


Poster: I am Dual national Irish/UK citizen and we have moved back from Spain


86ti
Guru responded: Have you applied as an Irish national or a returning UK citizen? In the latter case you should not be required to exercise treaty rights as per the Eind ruling.


Find that discussion about Eind here:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=80142

Rolfus: " I raised this with UKBA in a FOI request. They made a very helpful and courteous reply.

In essence, they say returning British Citizens are covered by regulation 9 of the EEA immigration Regulations 2006, and there is nothing within reg 9 that requires a British (sic) national to continue to be economically active on return to UK. The regs are therefore compliant with Eind...

Of course the UKBA also deny that 'other family members' of British nationals have the right to facilitation . But as you are married this will not be an issue."

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"Can my family members work in the UK?

A family member of an EEA national who intends to travel with them or join them in the UK can work without a work permit. Family members are generally not required to register under the Worker Registration Scheme or comply with the special requirements for Bulgarian and Romanian workers. The EEA national must be a 'qualified person' in the UK."

For the first 90 days the Qualified person bit is assumed for all EEA nationals; nobody has to prove it. After 90 days the EEA national can be required to prove they are qualified persons, but in your case, see the Eind case above.

[sarah82]

So am i clear in the understanding that if i register as an irish national then return to the uk, that i'll be an eea and will have to continue to exercise treaty rights upon my return to the uk?

if i register as a british national and return to the uk then there is no immediate obligation for me to continue to be economically active/exercising treaty rights as i'd be covered under the 'surrinder singh'ruling? is that the basic jest of it?

[vinny]

My understanding is that the 'surrinder singh' ruling enables family members of a British citizen to be treated as family members of an EEA national for the purpose of the EEA regulations.

Your family members cannot exercise treaty rights in the UK until you do.

[nonspecifics]

@vinny

I thought for the first 90 days the right is assumed. After 90 days proof of exercising Treaty Rights is required. ( a jobseeker is exercising Treaty Rights)

Can you quote where it says the EEA national must prove the exercising of Treaty Rights for the non-EEA to work during the first 90 days?

Ta.

[vinny]

71.

[Greenie]

My understanding is that the 'surrinder singh' ruling enables family members of a British citizen to be treated as family members of an EEA national for the purpose of the EEA regulations.

Your family members cannot exercise treaty rights in the UK until you do.

As the op British there is no requirements for his to be economically active once he returns to the UK in order for his family to apply for a residence card under the surrinder singh ruling. What matters is that he was living in another EU state with his family and working there prior to coming to the UK.