Directive 2004/38/EC thread

[vinny]

This may help:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/doc ... 013_en.pdf

[Classified Machine]

Has anyone else considered challenging VFS Global (or the member states who've decided to outsource to them) and their dubious 'service charge' with regards to EEA/EU spouse visas? This amongst many other dubious things. DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC states:

"Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure"

VFS of course say they are not charging for the visa. But given that paying the service charge is the only way to get the visa it amounts to the same thing, surely? Imagine a pub giving away free beer but charging a 'service charge' for the glass and that is the only way you can get the beer. Whatever way they dress it up, they are charging for a visa which according to DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC is meant to be free.

Additionally, there is certainly no evidence of these visas being issued 'as soon as possible' or through an 'accelerated procedure'. You find yourselves sitting with people who've are applying for a variety of different visas and who've applied for an appointment online the same as you have done.

I've also read posters on this thread state that all that is required for these visas is a marriage certificate and passport. Yet the requested documents from VFS include the residence permit, a photograph, photocopies of the passports pages etc etc. On what basis do the member states or VFS require these documents?

[Neelam81]

Hi i am a uk citizen and my huband has a indian passport but he has settlement in the UK and thats what his residence permit say's i am very confused on what type of visa to apply for as the spanish website states the following
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Under Directive 2004/38/EC and according to Real Decreto 240/2007, 16 February, Family members of an EU/EEA National in possession of a valid 1*UK Residence Permit / 2* British Residence Permit card are not required of a visa to enter Spain if traveling with or intending to join the EEA family member. If the person travels without the family member, they would be required to apply under the Tourist visa category and provide all of the required documentation for the same, and would be required to pay the visa fee in addition to the service charge. Please note that the UK Residence Permit/BRP card must state the exact following wording
1* “Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA/EU National”2 * “Residence Card of a Family Member of a Union Citizen”
as he's a spouse of a eu national should i apply for eu spouse visa or tourist?

please help i'm very confused

Thanks in advance x

[rnazaret]

Has anyone used a Lawyer in Germany to help with 2004/38/EC (dependents + Other Beneficiaries) case?
- Any recommendations?
- Any ideas on Budget?

Working with SOLVIT and German Embassy for over 4 months and getting extremely frustrated with the 'competency' of the officers.

Thank you!

[CR001]

Has anyone used a Lawyer in Germany to help with 2004/38/EC (dependents + Other Beneficiaries) case?
- Any recommendations?
- Any ideas on Budget?

Working with SOLVIT and German Embassy for over 4 months and getting extremely frustrated with the 'competency' of the officers.

Thank you!

Members are not permitted to post the contact/name details of solicitors.

[rnazaret]

ok, thank you. I can appreciate that.

Let me ask, could anyone describe their experience in working with the national court system on getting their 2004/38/EC rights recognized ?

I am in an extremely frustrating situation with the (National) Competent Office and the National SOLVIT agency has been non-responsive.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[baconator]

Hello dear members,

I'm a German national, right now living in China, married to a Chinese national. Our marriage was registered in Hong Kong, including an apostille from the High Court.
We want to go for a short stay tourism trip to Hungary later this year. Previously, a Schengen visa had been issued. At that time we also wanted to visit Germany, so we processed the visa "as usually", including accomodation reservation, flight tickets, all documents from my spouses employer, bank statements.
This time, I would like to travel to Hungary only, so I think this falls under the directive 2004/38/ec.

So here my questions:
1) Does our situation actually fall under the Directive?
2) Is the reason for travelling "Tourism" or "Other"?
3) On the TLS website online form, there is no way to actually skip the "Host information" part - should I enter the name of the accomodation we plan to stay? I heard that all fields marked with an asterisk on the paper form should be left blank. It's impossible to leave these fields blank in the online form - Catch 22, because if I don't fill in anything, the form cannot be processed. Or should I just enter "N/A" in order to trick the online form?
4) Is a health insurance (30'000 EUR) required? I wanted to produce it anyway, better be safe than sorry.
5) Should I write a letter explaining the situation to the embassy/consular? We just want to go to Hungary as tourists for two weeks and then return to China.
6) Am I just overly concerned?

It's not really about the 60 EUR for the visa, but producing the documents from the employer is a bit complicated. My wife is working in a higher position, the company is state-owned.

Thank you in advance, and have a good day!

[Two9A]

Ok, a new question. I can't see that this has been answered recently, so here goes:

I'm in the process of moving from the UK to the Netherlands (I have an apartment in Rotterdam, and have set up a consultancy BV), and my wife (from the visa-required country of Pakistan) applied for a visa under 2004/38/EC. On the first occasion in March, she was refused on the grounds that the marriage certificate was not duly attested under article 2 of said directive, and appeal to the IND was also refused with no reason given. She has today been refused her second application, with the following wording:

Detailed investigations have shown that you are attempting to abuse the right of free movement. You have demonstrated artificial conduct entered into solely with the purpose of obtaining the right to free movement and residence under EU law. Although you formally meet the requirements set out in Community rules, this conduct is contradictory to those rules.

Is it worth taking this second application to appeal, and/or to Solvit instead of appealing to the IND directly? Is there any way to find out the grounds on which the application was denied, except for the intentionally obtuse "artificial conduct"?

[mrandmrsbo]

European Union Freedom of Movement


After she arrived in this country, 10 days later we applied with the same documents for her “RESIDENT DOCUMENT” and it took the HO in Liverpool…… more than 6 months to issue it! Obviously, as it was FREE of Charge, it wasn't for them priority to do any work …… and only Moved when I threaten to complain to the EU Parliament for breaking the Directive’s time scale. I did not bother complaining to SOLVIT.

While we were waiting for the “Resident Document “ to be processed, we had requested our Passports back and decided to visit Greece. Visiting the Greek Consulate to apply for her Visa, according to the rules, FREE OF CHARGE, I was told that she had to pay…… which I replied to read their instructions…… and finally made a call to the FO in Athens, spoke to somebody who was dealing with EU Matters and few minutes later the woman who was adamant and refused to process our application, came out looking for us and in 30 minutes later we had a 3 months Schegen Visa in her Passport.

It is clear that the various clerks of the Authorities do not bother reading new instructions…… and to make sure we will have no more problems I printed the relevant Greek Law and took it with us. Entering Greece was a breeze, and testing the waters, I found out that the officer was very knowledgeable, asking my wife, “”where is your husband, you must be travelling together or is he waiting outside?” So I showed my face.

On the way out it was another story. A young ignorant officer was refusing to allow my Russian National wife to depart for the UK and it took over 20 minutes to sort it out, because the boss was drinking coffee…. and she would not listen to me neither bother reading the Greek Law.

Dear all

I've seen the above post by Wiz and noted he had somewhat similar situation, although that was a while ago, but would like to find out what your current opinion would be on the following:
My wife (non-EU) and I (EU citizen) have been married for over 6 years and living in the UK for over 10 years. We now both have applied for PR, which unfortunately could take up to 6 months to get and we are unaware of any ways to speed it up. We applied last month as her EEA permit was expiring anyways, and used European Passport Return Service so we both have our passports and as it is summer time we really would like to travel to her home country and EU. As her EEA permit was expiring she could not get a Schengen visa 3 months prior to her EEA permit expiration date (that seems to be the rule with all the embassies). So it now looks like travelling is not so straightforward. We read extensively about the Freedom of Movement directive and success stories which gave as some hope, but it is still a risk, so we thought we'd ask someone who is possibly more knowledgeable than us for opinion.
Travelling with no visa, Schengen or UK, at all seems like a huge risk. She phoned some of the EU embassies in her home country, but they replied they will not accept her application for Schengen visa because she does not live there for such a long time. This seems to contradict with the directive, but it is hard to explain something to someone there as they seem to be living by their own rules, never picking up the phone and not replying to emails. We found a way to possibly get her a tourist visa for 110 Euro. In given situation we are willing to accept the cost. (The situation is more complicated because i cannot accompany her for full 2 weeks visa waiting time in her home country and then go to Europe because of work, i can only take about a week off in total, and i think without my passport she would have hard time proving anything, so we think tourist visa could be a solution)
However, even in the event she gets that Schengen, we travel and get to the border in France, we still need to convince the border officers there to let us in on that ferry and those in the UK to let us off and in the country. In your opinion, how likely are we to succeed? Who are more difficult to deal with - border control in Europe or border control in the UK? I know it is said in the post it is possible, but that was nearly a decade ago and most of other success stories are from a couple of years ago. Do you have any information whether the situation changed since then, to the better or worse? And another question, what happens if all fails and they dont let us in? Do we have to wait for the decision from the Home office about her PR to come back? I dont think she could have two visa applications simultaneously. Also, do you think it could have any impact on the Home office decision about her PR? We really do want to travel, but we really do not want to be separated for 4-5 months.
To sum up, in the event we travel together to whatever UK border we could (most likely one of the sea ports as we dont want to risk air-travel and speaking to airport staff and missing flights etc) with marriage certificate (well, an official copy as original we sent out with our application), with her COA letter from the Home Office (that also gives her right to work), a black and white copy of her old, expired by the time of travel EEA residence permit, copy of the directive in several languages, bills and statements from our address (cant think of anything else), can we, well she in fact, get denied entry? If so, what could be the consequences?
As we see it, we are covered by two laws - the EU freedom of movement directive, and here in the UK, after 5 years together with me since i exercise the treaty rights, she automatically acquires the right of Permanent Residence. If i got it wrong somewhere, please let me know.
Thank you in advance

[Caravel88]

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/t ... dex_en.htm

This page will answer your questions regarding travelling in the EU with your NON-EU spouse.

Basically with your marriage certificate you can travel together.

If you go to her home country, you are unlikely to be able to return without a visa because the Stupid are likely to refuse boarding.

European Union Freedom of Movement


After she arrived in this country, 10 days later we applied with the same documents for her “RESIDENT DOCUMENT” and it took the HO in Liverpool…… more than 6 months to issue it! Obviously, as it was FREE of Charge, it wasn't for them priority to do any work …… and only Moved when I threaten to complain to the EU Parliament for breaking the Directive’s time scale. I did not bother complaining to SOLVIT.

While we were waiting for the “Resident Document “ to be processed, we had requested our Passports back and decided to visit Greece. Visiting the Greek Consulate to apply for her Visa, according to the rules, FREE OF CHARGE, I was told that she had to pay…… which I replied to read their instructions…… and finally made a call to the FO in Athens, spoke to somebody who was dealing with EU Matters and few minutes later the woman who was adamant and refused to process our application, came out looking for us and in 30 minutes later we had a 3 months Schegen Visa in her Passport.

It is clear that the various clerks of the Authorities do not bother reading new instructions…… and to make sure we will have no more problems I printed the relevant Greek Law and took it with us. Entering Greece was a breeze, and testing the waters, I found out that the officer was very knowledgeable, asking my wife, “”where is your husband, you must be travelling together or is he waiting outside?” So I showed my face.

On the way out it was another story. A young ignorant officer was refusing to allow my Russian National wife to depart for the UK and it took over 20 minutes to sort it out, because the boss was drinking coffee…. and she would not listen to me neither bother reading the Greek Law.

Dear all

I've seen the above post by Wiz and noted he had somewhat similar situation, although that was a while ago, but would like to find out what your current opinion would be on the following:
My wife (non-EU) and I (EU citizen) have been married for over 6 years and living in the UK for over 10 years. We now both have applied for PR, which unfortunately could take up to 6 months to get and we are unaware of any ways to speed it up. We applied last month as her EEA permit was expiring anyways, and used European Passport Return Service so we both have our passports and as it is summer time we really would like to travel to her home country and EU. As her EEA permit was expiring she could not get a Schengen visa 3 months prior to her EEA permit expiration date (that seems to be the rule with all the embassies). So it now looks like travelling is not so straightforward. We read extensively about the Freedom of Movement directive and success stories which gave as some hope, but it is still a risk, so we thought we'd ask someone who is possibly more knowledgeable than us for opinion.
Travelling with no visa, Schengen or UK, at all seems like a huge risk. She phoned some of the EU embassies in her home country, but they replied they will not accept her application for Schengen visa because she does not live there for such a long time. This seems to contradict with the directive, but it is hard to explain something to someone there as they seem to be living by their own rules, never picking up the phone and not replying to emails. We found a way to possibly get her a tourist visa for 110 Euro. In given situation we are willing to accept the cost. (The situation is more complicated because i cannot accompany her for full 2 weeks visa waiting time in her home country and then go to Europe because of work, i can only take about a week off in total, and i think without my passport she would have hard time proving anything, so we think tourist visa could be a solution)
However, even in the event she gets that Schengen, we travel and get to the border in France, we still need to convince the border officers there to let us in on that ferry and those in the UK to let us off and in the country. In your opinion, how likely are we to succeed? Who are more difficult to deal with - border control in Europe or border control in the UK? I know it is said in the post it is possible, but that was nearly a decade ago and most of other success stories are from a couple of years ago. Do you have any information whether the situation changed since then, to the better or worse? And another question, what happens if all fails and they dont let us in? Do we have to wait for the decision from the Home office about her PR to come back? I dont think she could have two visa applications simultaneously. Also, do you think it could have any impact on the Home office decision about her PR? We really do want to travel, but we really do not want to be separated for 4-5 months.
To sum up, in the event we travel together to whatever UK border we could (most likely one of the sea ports as we dont want to risk air-travel and speaking to airport staff and missing flights etc) with marriage certificate (well, an official copy as original we sent out with our application), with her COA letter from the Home Office (that also gives her right to work), a black and white copy of her old, expired by the time of travel EEA residence permit, copy of the directive in several languages, bills and statements from our address (cant think of anything else), can we, well she in fact, get denied entry? If so, what could be the consequences?
As we see it, we are covered by two laws - the EU freedom of movement directive, and here in the UK, after 5 years together with me since i exercise the treaty rights, she automatically acquires the right of Permanent Residence. If i got it wrong somewhere, please let me know.
Thank you in advance

[smah]

Guys, my husband applied to travel with me to Italy back in 2019 and after paid background check with long delay they refused his visa saying wrong application made. Taken your advise on this thread we contacted Solvit and they were helpful but again the Italian embassy in Bangladesh took round about 8 month of throwing it to each other between them and Solvit and in the last week of December 2020 they informed Solvit that they will issue my husband with a visa without justification but they never contacted my husband ever since. Any attempt we made to contact them was futile as the embassy in these third world countries have no accountability and act as though they are doing you favour by making life hell!! Now my husband of course have UK residency permit and we want to travel to Europe . So we need good guidance where and how do we go about it after proper Brexit now.. by the way I am White British holding British passport if that is of any concerns. Thanks in advance for your help

[digitalvannomad]

Hello everyone,

I've been reading all day on this forum but I've not been able to find a clear answer for our specific situation:

I'm a Dutch citizen living in Romania (for 10 years already). My wife is from Indonesia and lives with me in Romania, she has a family member residence permit in Romania.

We are currently traveling around Europe in a camper. Is it correct that my wife has the same freedom of movement rights as me? Meaning we can travel together around Schengen / Europe with no time limit as long as we don't stay longer as 90 days in a specific EU country?

I thought initially that the 90/180 day limit applied, but the consular office in Netherlands has told me that the freedom of movement rights means we can travel longer as these 90 days in Schengen, as long as we travel together and can proof that we are married.

Could anyone please confirm that this is correct? Can we travel together around Schengen with no time limit? (Except for the 90 days per country)

[MirzaAdil]

Hi ,

My father is Irish citizen he moved to Cyprus 8 years ago and applied tourist visas for all family A daughter 3 sons and wife. We came in cyprus almost 7 years ago, applied and granted temporary residency of 5 years and after 5 years we applied permanent residency cards on the 2004/38/EC directive 10 years that we have now for 1.5 years.

Then i went to my home country pakistan to marry and i cane back after 2 months and i applied tourist visa for my wife visa was granted she came in cyprus then i tried to register her to reside in cyprus but refused even they didn't accepted any application. the visa was for 85 days but she lived here for 7 months or so because she was pregnant. I tried everything contacted different lawyers but no change . Even if she give birth to child in cyprus still there was no hope so i sent her back to pakistan.

we all family is well settled here all of us have business but without a family its not possible to stay like this. Because my other brother also sent his wife back to country with his 6 months daughter.


So now we decided to move to portugal to do business and bring the families there and we are moving withe our father so basically we don't need visa to go to portugal.

My questions are

01- What status we can have in portugal and is it possible to change our existing permanent residency cards in portugal or need to apply again as a family member of eu citizen?

02- Can i apply for family reunification or anything to bring my wife from pakistan to portugal? Because in the Directive 2003/86/EC family reunification don't apply to us because we got the residency as 2004/38/EC.

[vinny]

If you become a Cypriot citizen, then you and your family members may exercise your freedom of movement rights in Portugal?

[Angel99]

Best way is to apply for citizenship in Cyprus if possible so you can easily move anywhere in EU with your family with just marriage certificate.

If what you have in Cyprus is a EU long term residency/ EU permanent residence card, it allows you to move to Portugal and apply for temporary residence there if you have sufficient funds/ business/employment there.

Then you sponsor your family via family unification in Portugal. Portugal makes it easy for families and nowadays they encourage immigration.

[Shimit]

Hello all,

Firstly, apologies for posting in what is a rather old thread! I've been searching the forum for an answer to my specific situation but haven't been able to obtain (to my confused mind!), a definite answer.

My husband and I are both UK nationals, residing in the UK but he also holds an Irish/EU passport. We normally spend 5 months of the year split between France and Spain. As we've been travelling together, normally we have no problems with me 'overstaying' my 90 days on exit from France or Spain due to the Directive 2004/38/EC. I have also travelled back and forth home to the UK alone, passport stamped on entry and exit but within my '90 days'.

However, on our next trip, I will need to fly home to the UK alone twice a month for a couple of days at a time for medical treatment. Some of these trips will inevitably happen after my '90 days'.

My understanding from a friend in a similar situation is that as long as I travel with copies of the Directive 2004/38/EC in the relevant languages, our original marriage certificate and a copy of my husband's IE/EU passport I should be able make any trips after my '90' days without issues upon arrival back into the EU, and border control at the airport will stamp my passport 'into EU' as normal, even after effectively exceeding my '90 days'.

Can anyone out there confirm that this is the case? My friend also mentioned something about any time spent in EU travelling with a EU spouse doesn't count towards my '90 days' but I'm not quite clear how or if this would impact our situation.

Phew! Well done if you got this far!

Thanks in advance for any help!

Shimit