Passport countersignature predates citizenship certificate

[psb]

Can the date of a passport countersignature predate the date of issue of the citizenship certificate? Or the date should be left blank and completed after the citizenship ceremony?

[cricinfo]

Can the date of a passport countersignature predate the date of issue of the citizenship certificate? Or the date should be left blank and completed after the citizenship ceremony?

I would put the date on form the same date or the post date off the date on certificate.

[Astrid24]

Can the date of a passport countersignature predate the date of issue of the citizenship certificate? Or the date should be left blank and completed after the citizenship ceremony?

My countersignature and passport application are dated 8th June and my naturalisation certificate is dated 18th June.

I'm not sure if it matters but I don't see why it should as long as you didn't send the application off before you received the certificate. You can't do that anyway because you need to write the certificate details in the application and enclose the certificate with the application.

But the date of your countersignature should be after or on the same day as the date on the application because the countersignature is supposed to read through your application to verify that the details are correct before they countersign for you.

[Jambo]

because the countersignature is supposed to read through your application to verify that the details are correct before they countersign for you.

Exactly. And how he could do that if you only got the naturalisation certificate 10 days later?. If IPS spot that, they will write back to you asking to get the countersignatory signature again.

[Astrid24]

because the countersignature is supposed to read through your application to verify that the details are correct before they countersign for you.

Exactly. And how he could do that if you only got the naturalisation certificate 10 days later?. If IPS spot that, they will write back to you asking to get the countersignatory signature again.

Omg really? I thought it would be fine because they're supposed to check the details you wrote about yourself to make sure they're true and to verify your identity, and I thought it was just the things like your name, age, DOB, address, and to verify your picture to make sure it's really you. I didn't think they should need to see the naturalisation certificate because the certificate doesn't really verify identity, it's just used as proof of British Citizenship for the application. I really hope it doesn't cause delays!

[Ayyubi72]

because the countersignature is supposed to read through your application to verify that the details are correct before they countersign for you.

Exactly. And how he could do that if you only got the naturalisation certificate 10 days later?. If IPS spot that, they will write back to you asking to get the countersignatory signature again.

Totally overworked conclusion.

Person countersigning the passport application only certifies that he has known the passport applicant for at least 2 years and is able to identify them (their picture). There is no responsibility on the counter signatory to read through the whole application and verify all the details. They are not acting as an inspector. They are not verifying that the applicant has been naturalised or not, or what the immigration status of the applicant is.

It perfectly fine to get counter signature done before naturalisation.

[Ayyubi72]

Can the date of a passport countersignature predate the date of issue of the citizenship certificate? Or the date should be left blank and completed after the citizenship ceremony?

It perfectly fine if the date of passport countersignature to predate the issue of citizenship certificate.

The counter signatory is only certifying that he has known the applicant for 2 years, and is able to identify them (their picture).

[Astrid24]

because the countersignature is supposed to read through your application to verify that the details are correct before they countersign for you.

Exactly. And how he could do that if you only got the naturalisation certificate 10 days later?. If IPS spot that, they will write back to you asking to get the countersignatory signature again.

Totally overworked conclusion.

Person countersigning the passport application only certifies that he has known the passport applicant for at least 2 years and is able to identify them (their picture). There is no responsibility on the counter signatory to read through the whole application and verify all the details. They are not acting as an inspector. They are not verifying that the applicant has been naturalised or not, or what the immigration status of the applicant is.


It perfectly fine to get counter signature done before naturalisation.

Yeah, this is what I thought. I don't see how the naturalisation certificate has anything to do with the person countersigning.

[ban.s]

before you debate on this further i suggest read the passport application form carefully.


Section 10 - Counter Signature - If a counter signature is needed, they must fill in this section after the rest of the form has been filled in.

[Astrid24]

before you debate on this further i suggest read the passport application form carefully.


Section 10 - Counter Signature - If a counter signature is needed, they must fill in this section after the rest of the form has been filled in.

Yeah, I know that part, which is why I said the countersignature date should be the same or after the application date. That still doesn't really have anything to do with the naturalisation date though. I personally don't think it will be a problem if the naturalisation certificate date is after the countersignature date, as long as the application date is not after the countersignature date. Anyway, I sent my passport application form off that way. I'll let you guys know if it causes any problems or delays.

[CR001]

I agree with Jambo and Ban.S as you are not considered British until your ceremony and you receive the certificate, so technically, a passport application signed and dated before this, is really not valid as you are not British as that point. Do we really need to give them anymore reasons to impose more rules and changes for immigrants?

I really don't understand why people try and rush things instead of being patient and following the proper steps and using common sense! They just create potential problems for themselves and then blame UKBA or IPS or whoever when things go wrong.

[Astrid24]

Well, I had to get my countersignature to sign it when she was free. She's a busy person and the day she signed it was a day she wasn't busy. Why not get it done then when she had the time? Who knows when I would have been able to catch her again, and I am in a hurry to get my passport as I want to travel.

Anyway, like I said, we'll see how it affects my application and I'll let you guys know. So far the money has been debited from my account and I received the sms from the passport office today saying the application has been received. If they need me to get a countersignature again they'll write to me soon, I suppose.

[Ayyubi72]

I really don't understand why people try and rush things instead of being patient and following the proper steps and using common sense! They just create potential problems for themselves and then blame UKBA or IPS or whoever when things go wrong.

And I must say, that I totally agree. There is no point in being so impatient. Its best done step by step. Half of the forum is just clogged up by queries from impatient people.

[CR001]

And I must say, that I totally agree. There is no point in being so impatient. Its best done step by step. Half of the forum is just clogged up by queries from impatient people.

LOL.....we need a like button on the forum!!!

Agree, exactly my thoughts (and frustrations sometimes). It is all such an expensive process and planning all your applications and next steps is absolutely important and of course, doing a lot of reading and research yourself rather than expect all the help given (for free) on a silver platter!!

[ban.s]

LOL.....we need a like button on the forum!!!

Like button

[Astrid24]

I agree there are a lot of impatient people. Myself included. But you can't blame people for being impatient when UKBA makes people wait for weeks to months without any contact so people have no idea what's going on with their application. Or when people want to go on holiday and wish to get their passports asap.

But seeing as you guys are ever so patient and, I suppose, have never been at all anxious over your immigration issues you probably don't understand all of that, eh?

[Ayyubi72]

No, not everybody is impatient. And many a times people come on the forum only because they are impatient. They know how long its going to take, but still want to keep asking on the forum "how long" "how to speed up" etc etc.

My first ever application to the then immigration and nationality department took 14 months to decide, I only made a single enquiry during this period. And in those days, you could actually phone them, and they use to provide updates over the phone. By the way the only update was "your application is under consideration" and it remains the case till date.

When UKBA tell you that it can take 6 months time to decide an application, then you should wait 6 months before getting impatient.

And what should UKBA update you with? That you application is now in shelf 7, and now its in shelf 6 and now shelf 4. We hope it will get to the shelf 1 in 2 months. In majority of cases there is no update that UKBA can provide you. They debit the fees and send an acknowledgement, and there is biometrics appointment. This is routine. And then one day a caseworker looks at the application and decides. Its not like that he looks at the application again and again and keeps pondering over, or keeps passing the application to others for their opinions.

And then we have people who have applied for their nationality or child's registration, and somehow half of them have urgent travel plans and they must travel while BC is pending. Most of these tend to be Indian citizens, and many times asking if they/child can travel on Indian passport while BC is pending or before getting british passport, or keep asking about OCI procedure when this OCI procedure is very clearly mentioned in a step-by-step way on HCI website.

If you get a flight to new york you know it takes 7 hours to get there. Now would you keep asking every hour from the crew "how long" "how long" every hour.

I would suggest some new immigration rules:

That UKBA must decide applications within 6 months. If they fail to decide in 6 months, then they should compensate applicant. If an applicant loses out financially due to this delay, then UKBA must pay the financial losses.

Any applicant who makes enquiry before 5 months have passed, should have their application put back in the que on the date of enquiry. So, if someone makes progress enquiry after 4 months, then the new 6 months period will start from that date.

[Ayyubi72]

I would also suggest a premium same day BC service for impatient applicants. It should be a same day PEO service and the application fees should be £2000. And I am sure most of the people from this forum will use this service, and it will be a good earner for UK taxpayers.

In the same way, there should be a same day passport service for first time passport applicants, costing £1000.

[Astrid24]

Oh, I definitely agree with you that some people are unnecessarily impatient. I've told people on the forum to be patient several times myself. For example, when someone asked if they should contact their MP about their application after only 2 months!

But I'm just saying that the impatience is sometimes understandable.

I came on this forum to get a general idea of how long my naturalisation application would take. But I was patient with that as I expected it to take up to 6 months as it says on the UKBA site. That it look less time than that to be approved was a bonus and a pleasant surprise.

I'm only anxious over my passport now because my boyfriend has foolishly booked a holiday for us before I've received my passport! So I want to get my passport in time for the holiday. If I didn't have the holiday I would be in no rush for my passport and I would have waited for the ceremony before filling the application.

I read over my passport application about 6 times, read the application leaflet over and over and I didn't see how it would pose a problem if the certificate was dated after the countersignature. So I sent it. It's very condescending to say that people aren't using 'common sense' when you don't know everyone's circumstances. I used plenty of common sense and didn't ask anyone in this forum for advice before sending my application off because I didn't need advice.

I only even mentioned the fact that my countersignature date predates the certificate date in this thread because the OP asked a question about it and I wanted to put my experience as a potential answer to the query.

No one is actually a 'guru' on this board despite what it says under their screen name. We all just learn and find out information by reading the information UKBA and etc. give us and by sharing our experiences.

[Astrid24]

I would also suggest a premium same day BC service for impatient applicants. It should be a same day PEO service and the application fees should be £2000. And I am sure most of the people from this forum will use this service, and it will be a good earner for UK taxpayers.

In the same way, there should be a same day passport service for first time passport applicants, costing £1000.

I'm sure many people will happily pay it! I would have to pass on that though, seeing as I am a student and only work part time.

[Astrid24]

Hey guys just thought I'd give an update.

I received my interview letter and documents back today so I guess there was no issue with my countersignature date being before the naturalisation certificate date. I've booked an interview for tomorrow.

My application may have just been overlooked, or the countersignature predating the date of naturalisation could very well not be an issue at all, but as I'm not sure I wouldn't recommend or advise anyone to do it. It's at your own risk!

[Ayyubi72]

Did tell you from day one it won't be an issue

[Astrid24]

Did tell you from day one it won't be an issue

You did! I also thought it wouldn't be an issue at first but then some people made me worry!

[Ayyubi72]

In real life things do not always work as they are written down on papers.

I have a non-eu passport with ILR and been on holiday for a week. Only returned last night and tried and tested many things related with immigration.

The country I visited requires me to get a visa, which I did from their london embassy. Their requirements are that send all kind of documents like bank statements, letters from employers, confirmed holiday booking in original, confirmed tickets for return journey, travel insurance etc etc.

I only sent application form, a simple letter from my employers and an online unconfirmed quotation of my holiday. I got the visa within a week. No bank statements or other proof of funds was sent.

I traveled via france. When I arrived my destination country I closely watched from the que what their immigration were doing and looking at. When I reached the immigration desk I deliberately put the landing card on my ILR vignette page and not on the page where I had that country's visa. The immigration officer was kind of confused, kept looking at the ILR vignette and my landing card. Asked me where was my hotel and I replied. Asked me what my profession was and I replied. He then stamped on a blank page of my passport without even looking or checking if I had a visa for their country or not.

Coming back and while changing flights at paris, right as the passengers got out of plane, there stood 4 french immigration official checking every passenger passport. All non-eu passports were looked at very carefully. I handed them my passport with ILR vignette page open. They looked at it and asked where I was getting my next flight to, I said manchester. He said thank you and I was on my way. I had 3 and half hours wait at Paris, so it was time to try something else. I headed to exit rather than transit lounge. Arrived at immgration counter and handed my passport. I was told I was not allowed out and that they would escort me to transit lounge. I kept asking, showed them my UK driving license and told them that I live in UK permanently for more than a decade. Then immigration officer called someone else who could speak very good english. I spoke to this officer and said I had to wait for very long and just wanted to go out and have look. I showed my boarding card for my flight to UK, my passport, took my wallet out and showed my driving license and all the cards I had in my wallet. After looking at everything for about 2 minutes, my passport was stamped I passed immigration. I just could not believe that I was landed without any schengen or french visa. I wandered around for 2 hours and then entered again through departures.

So here I have a passport with french arrival and departure stamps. I still cannot work out how it all happened. I think I was just lucky or the immigration were just stupid, lol.

I am not at all suggesting that people with ILR should or can travel to france without visa.

On my arrival back in UK at manchester airport I handed my passport and landing card. I was asked how long I have lived in UK. I replied I have stopped counting as it has been ages. Nothing else was asked and I got another date stamp in my passport.

[ban.s]

I think I was just lucky or the immigration were just stupid, lol.

yes you were lucky but immigration officers were not stupid. They just assessed any potential risk of your disappearance and used their discretion and allowed entry. possession of a valid visa doesn't guarantee entry to a foreign country it's always the decision of the officer at the border.