UK Residence card for Non-EEA parents, if I visit part time?

[heyitsme]

I am a UK Citizen living and working in France for the last 2 years. I want to apply for surinder singh for my dependant parents. My parents are non EU nationals who require visa to visit UK and France. My parents are coming to France 3 weeks from now and I have prepared all the documentation for their carte de sejour (residence card in France). My children are UK nationals but my wife is a permanent resident of UK and not a national. My family (wife and children along with my dependant parents) plan to move to UK after my parents get the French residence card and EU Family Permit. I am having a job in France which I can't quit for at least an year, I would not be wholly moving back to UK myself within an year of them (my family + parents) moving to UK. I would visit them in UK regularly every weekend (Saturday Sunday). The age of my parents are 67 years and 58 years for father and mother respectively.
I want to be able to apply for the UK residence card for my parents as soon as possible because I fear that the Surinder Singh route will be closed soon and I want to get my foot in before the door closes completely. Is it possible that I start some business company in UK, where my wife (UK permanent resident) can work after she moves to UK with my parents and I can come on weekends to UK regularly and do part time work there in UK to show that I am spending time with them in UK?

I genuinely want to move to the UK with my parents but my job in France requires me to stay till the next year which is why I can't move immediately this year so do you think Is there any possibility in any way that I can apply for my parent's UK residence card while not staying full time in UK myself?

To summerize, Will it be possible for me to apply for my dependant parents UK residence card via surinder singh route even if I myself don't permanently move to UK (and only visit them every weekend) while my wife and children move to UK with my parents? Will the UKBA raise any objection?

This issue has been troubling me for quite some time. If anyone could help with this query I would be really thankful.

Regards

[Casa]

Unfortunately there's a big hole in your plan, which you may already suspect.
You as the future sponsor of your parents are currently exercising you Treaty rights in France. Your parents will be unable to re-locate to the UK under Surinder Singh with your wife and children if you continue to have your base in France.
It's immaterial what your wife's employment status is in the UK as she isn't the British sponsor...you are.
You also mention that your wife is a permanent resident in the UK. Is she living with you in France at present and if so, is she employed there?

Edit: By the way, apologies that your other thread on renegotiation had to be locked...hopefully members will keep this one on track for you.

[heyitsme]

Thanks Casa for replying. Yeah I hope members will help keep this thread for me myself

My wife, currently, doesn't work in France and she having a french residence card as my dependant.

Yes I am aware of this problem that you mentioned, but

1) when I would be applying for the UK residence card for my parents, would they require evidence from me of my work in UK? If so, can I not provide the evidence of my part time work in UK and as I would be coming to UK every Friday and going back on Sunday?
2) would the UKBA/Home office require my evidence of my STAY IN UK?

[Casa]

I don't believe that this will qualify, but wait for others with comprehensive knowledge on SS regarding evidence of UK residence needed from the returning sponsor. However, my understanding is that employment isn't a requirement, but residence of the sponsor (you) is a condition of SS. The pertinent question is whether returning each weekend would be sufficient...and that's where my doubts lay.

[heyitsme]

Thanks for replying again.

I just read the application form for EEA (FM) applicaiton for residence card and the guidance notes and it doesn't mention anywhere about the present employment or proof of continuous residence of EEA citizen in the UK for Surinder Singh cases.

URL to the application form:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _03-16.pdf

Maybe other members having experience with SS can help us

[Casa]

Regarding employment in the UK on your return (or in your case the lack of it), you are covered by Eind
When a worker returns to the Member State of which he is a national, after being gainfully employed in another Member State, a third-country national who is a member of his family has a right under Article 10(1)(a) of Regulation No 1612/68 as amended by Regulation No 2434/92, which applies by analogy, to reside in the Member State of which the worker is a national, even where that worker does not carry on any effective and genuine economic activities.

[heyitsme]

Thanks casa, this covers the employment part but only question remaining is the "need for continuous residence of the sponsor in the UK"

[Casa]

Let's wait for a reply from the SS 'experts'... hopefully to the point and easy to digest.

[noajthan]

I...

I genuinely want to move to the UK with my parents but my job in France requires me to stay till the next year which is why I can't move immediately this year so do you think Is there any possibility in any way that I can apply for my parent's UK residence card while not staying full time in UK myself?

To summerize, Will it be possible for me to apply for my dependant parents UK residence card via surinder singh route even if I myself don't permanently move to UK (and only visit them every weekend) while my wife and children move to UK with my parents? Will the UKBA raise any objection?

This issue has been troubling me for quite some time. If anyone could help with this query I would be really thankful.

Regards

First question: in what way are parents dependent on you?
Any evidence to date?

Remember even obtaining a FP for UK (which is in effect an entry visa) is not a given.

I will largely disregard your dear children as they seem to be British. Except to ask where do children spend most of time?
Where do they go to school?
Languages spoken?

Your wife is a concern.
You mention that wife has "permanent residence" of UK. In what form is that?
Is it EU PR or ILR?
Does wife hold a UK-issued PR card?
If ILR when was it granted?
What nationality is your wife?

You seem to have been set up in France for around 2 years.
How long has wife lived away in France? length of longest period away from UK? (since acquiring permanent status).
Do you have a home in UK? (if so, what is its status? (eg empty, loaned to family, rented out or ??)
Has wife (with or without children) been flitting back and forth between UK home (& any business) and France?

The EFM RC is not the law of course but questions 9.4 and 9.18 give a steer on this.

SS rights for UK citizens ordinarily kick in when the UK national ('proxy EEA national' if you will) terminates their sojourn in the other Union memberstate and returns to UK.

If you don't return for another year or so the rights don't even get started.
And you potentially will fail due to the UK's somewhat controversial centre-of-life wrapper that is imposed around the cleaner, purer EU law.

Even if your SS rights were invocable in UK, (which is doubtful under this plan), your cumulative absences from UK (per year) would sooner or latr break your dependents' continuity of residence in UK.
(This is because parents would only have a right to reside in UK by virtue of you as sponsor).

The irony is that a UK-weekend-resident who is working abroad in the week is very much closer to the spirit and ideals of EU free movement but you would have to break new ground and fight that battle in a UK court).

As you are British, you are not a true EEA national, you are only an EEA national for family members who have enjoyed the SS adventure with you.
So, as per my understanding, you can't parachute family members into UK willy-nilly meaning you can't sponsor parents directly into UK (as a genuine EEA national might do).

Its probably helpful and important to remember that SS and EU freee movement in general is not about chain migration;
its simply about a Union citizen (eg you) being unconstrained by family concerns in exercising treaty rights and economic activity in a Union memberstate.

Its important to understand that, even by virtue of SS, you do not become a general-purpose EEA national for your whole family for evermore.
You only become an EEA national for those dependents that participated in the sojourn in a memberstate in order to engender and strengthen family life.

You cannot argue you are only enabled to exercise treaty rights in France because your parents are ensconced in UK.
It doesn't compute and it hasn't stopped you living and working in France so far.

Your plan (understandably) seems based on personal preference and convenience which EU law and UK gov (with its additional centre of life requirements won't entertain.
In HO's eyes you could just as easily sponsor parents from afar with them staying in the home country and you covering their finances for basic needs.

And even if your wife has PR, I do not think she cannot sponsor her parents-in-law in UK because she is not a returning UK citizen (and they have not lived with her in France).

Bottom line: As you are not a true EEA national, your parents need to move with you and reside with you in France.
So, set up with parents en famille in France and you have a better chance of making a stronger case to return with parents to UK in a year or so.

Anything else is, to my modest knowledge, uncharted territory.
You would need to dig into EU case law around the concepts of frontier workers.

Bonne chance mon brave!

[heyitsme]

Thanks alot for a detailed reply. I really appreciate it

My wife has permanent residence (under UK LAW) as she came on a UK dependant visa that I sponsored when I was in UK and she has been continously visiting UK to maintain permanent residency.

My dependant parents will live in UK with me and my wife only after my parents will get the French residence card and EU family permit this may take 3 to 7 months which will establish them being part of my Life in France. Once they get these documents only then will I along with my family (including parents and my 2 UK Citizen children) will move to UK and file for EEA2 application. According to the law it is not needed that the Sponsor (me) work in the UK while the EEA2 application is being processed.


1) I don't know how will the home office (UKba etc) assess that I am living all the time with my parents?

2) If they require any evidence of my physical presence all the time in UK please tell me how they will establish that? I can get the UK home under my name, utilities etc.

3) Do I need to tell them about my continued employment in France?

[noajthan]

...

1) I don't know how will the home office (UKba etc) assess that I am living all the time with my parents?

2) If they require any evidence of my physical presence all the time in UK please tell me how they will establish that? I can get the UK home under my name, utilities etc.

3) Do I need to tell them about my continued employment in France?

You already risk failing the centre of life test because wife has been returning to UK.
This suggests you may well have maintained your home there as a family home and wife has been checking up on it & etc.

Having family members (parents) in France for 3 months or so may not be long enough to satisfy the centre of life test.

Family members and wife/children leaving France only demonstrates a weakening of family life rather than strengthening it - the point of SS and free movement is the family unit has to be together in order for the sponsor to be able to function and enjoy treaty rights.
When you leave France for UK its got to be all or nothing.

These are other problematic areas in the context of satisfying centre of life requirements and passing the UK test.

Don't forget the UK position is at variance with EU law. And HO plays hard ball here.

Check the media as well as other members' cases in the forum.
For example, here's one member's recent experience involving direct family members (children).
Member did France, even got the FP for UK entry for family and yet RC confirming UK residence rights was ultimately denied.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/immigr ... 01467.html

1) You will have to prove it to UK HO satisfaction including meeting the stringent centre of life test to show you are a true SS-returnee.
With the emphasis being on returnee.

2) If you return to France you will not be in the UK.
You cannot secretly return to France and pretend you're in UK.

And accumulated time away will tend to breach dependents' continuity of residence.

3) Yes.

I have updated my post above - kindly grab strong cup of coffee and re-read at your convenience.
See questions 9.4 & 9.18 on EFM FM for starters.

Again, you cannot secretly return to France and pretend you're in UK.

Takeaway: give parents their best shot at UK by giving them a year or so in France.
It's still unclear if parents are actually your dependents.

And unclear where children spend most of time?
Where do they go to school?
Languages spoken?

And suggest cut all ties with UK. Rent UK house out.

[noajthan]

Edited highlights (to aid everyone's Sunday digestion)...

To summarise:
You are only exercising treaty rights at the moment;
yuo are not really practising SS at the moment because your wife and children don't require it.

The apparent UK connections will weaken your case (from UK point of view) when parents do join in France.

Critical points from Eind in red:

When a worker returns to the Member State of which he is a national, after being gainfully employed in another Member State, a third-country national who is a member of his family has a right under Article 10(1)(a) ...

[heyitsme]

Thanks for the post noajthan. Check your pm please.

Can you please tell me, if the applicants have to submit the proof of having severed their ties with the EU member state on returning to UK? If so when do they require such proofs is it at time of family permit application or at time of EEA2 FM residence card application?

[secret.simon]

I would hope that if your PM was germane to this thread, that you post the same information here as well, so that others can comment on it.

Noajthan had summarised succinctly why SS won't work in the case of bringing your parents to the UK under the EU rules following the path you have described here.

I would visit them in UK regularly every weekend (Saturday Sunday).

This, in itself, will likely cause the "center of life" test, that the UK applies on top of the EU law, to fail.

If you wish to do the SS route for your parents, you will need to do the following;

a) Move your entire family from the UK to France with you.
b) Get a Family Permit from the French authorities for your parents to join you in France. Once there, they can apply for an RC to stay in France under the EU rules.
c) Generate proof of integration of your life in France (language courses, French driving licence, certifications, etc). Spend some time in France (6months to a year recommended) with your family enjoying the sunshine and wine.
d) Then, return as a family unit to the UK with your parents.
e) Once they have entered the UK as a part of your family unit, they can apply for a UK RC and start their journey towards PR in the UK.
f) In the meanwhile, you can return to work in France, if you so wish.

That will have engaged the SS route fully.

This may affect the education of your children. How old are they? You may have to factor all that into your planning.

As an aside, if you are a British citizen and your wife is on ILR, has she applied for her British citizenship? Otherwise, living in France to complete the SS route may cause issues with her naturalisation.

And have you checked with your parents if they would be happy to move here? I know of some parents who can't stand the weather, the culture or some other factor and would rather stay put in their home country.

[heyitsme]

My wife couldn't apply as I moved to another country shortly after her ILR. As you described I have plenty of proofs including all the points you described like the French language, driving license, children born in France and one child going to French school. I don't believe I would have a problem with proving My integration in France. The only issue is me moving full time with them to UK within the coming 12 to 18 months, after which the SS route might close.

[secret.simon]

My wife couldn't apply as I moved to another country shortly after her ILR.

That is immaterial. IOf your wife meets the requirements for citizenship and she is married to a British citizen, she can apply for naturalisation irrespective of where you are located.

Where are your wife and children located at the moment?

[heyitsme]

With me in france

[CR001]

How long since your wife has left the UK and lived in France? Short visits to the UK do not maintain ILR status as she is not 'present and settled'.

[heyitsme]

She left UK about 4 years ago. We have been visiting UK for short term but never had issues with the immigration.

[CR001]

Oh dear!! Quite possible she might have lost ILR as if a person is not resident in the UK for 2 years or more, ILR status is lost and as I said, short visits do not maintain the status. She has been lucky but that luck could end at any time if the IO picks up she lives elsewhere and only 'visits' and ILR can be cancelled.

Are you sure she has not been stamped into the UK as a 6 month visitor? This would automatically cancel her ILR status.

[secret.simon]

Well, there is a good chance that your wife's ILR is suspect anyway, if not void already.

But, on the flip side, if your wife is in France with you, as are your children, you can do the SS route the way I suggested earlier; i.e. get your parents there while your whole family is there as dependent family members. I presume that you do know that you need to prove that your parents are currently dependent on you. Once there, you can start moving the whole family, as a unit, across the Channel.

I must say that your situation does seem to me like being between a rock and a hard place.

To complete the SS route for your parents, you need to prove that the center of your life (including your family) has moved to France.

But doing so proves that your wife has not really been settled in the UK for the past two years at least and that could render her ILR void. She would of course still have the right to live in the UK on the same basis as your parents (i.e. as a direct family member of an EEA citizen), but her settlement clock would have started again and she would only acquire PR under the EU rules five years after she returns to the UK as the family member of an EEA citizen.

As an aside, does anybody know if there is any requirement for the British citizen doing the SS Route to then reside in the UK or can he move to another EEA country again?

I know that Diatta states that family members need not be resident with the EEA citizen in the same country, but does that apply across national borders as well?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

[noajthan]

Thanks for the post noajthan. Check your pm please.

Can you please tell me, if the applicants have to submit the proof of having severed their ties with the EU member state on returning to UK? If so when do they require such proofs is it at time of family permit application or at time of EEA2 FM residence card application?

My understanding is submit adequate documentary supporting evidence for each application.
They are made under different regulations.
You cannot get one issued by default simply based on the other. The subsequent application is not waved through or rubber-stamped on that basis.

There are examples in forum of members who managed to get a FP but RCs were then later denied.

If you choose to play it hardcore and go commando you can simply roll up to the UK border and present yourselves.
That would avoid applying fo the FP (which is a kind of entry visa).

Note its not a backdoor into UK.
You will ofcourse face the same type of questions and have to submit the same type of documentary supporting evidence so budget for a long and stressful day of probing.
If successful the applicants will be stamped into UK.

See https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... to-travel/

This may be of interest on topic of FPs too:
https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... a-problem/

[noajthan]

She left UK about 4 years ago. We have been visiting UK for short term but never had issues with the immigration.

Nooooo! That's a no-no. You are living on the edge here.

I think the fundamental approach is lightly skewed here.
You cannot expect to have it all your own way to suit your family and circumstances (however understandable and well-meaning your motivation)..

You need to comply with EU law and regulations if on EU trajectory; comply with UK immigration if on UK trajectory.
And neither UK or EU regime is designed to support chain migration,

The EU regime is very laissez-faire and tolerant but you appear to be pushing the boundaries. (The UK regime is certainly not so tolerant or flexible).
Very fortunate not to have come unstuck so far and it would be a shame to see it happen.

[heyitsme]

Thanks everyone for replying.

Possibility of loosing ILR is a cause of concern indeed. I have been visiting UK twice a year but never faced any problem with my wife's immigration. How can I confirm this suspicion that my 'wife's ILR might be suspect other than waiting for the bad luck. Any harmless way?

Yes @simon I also need answer to this query " if there is any requirement for the British citizen doing the SS Route to then reside in the UK or can he move to another EEA country again?"

[Casa]

As CR001 has suggested, the first step is to check whether your wife's passport has been stamped in as a visitor on previous entry to the UK.