EEA4 application June 2016 - No more CoA given !!!!

[Benito11]

Good morning chaps,

As subject says I( non EU) sent my EEA4 application together with my partners EEA3 in June 22 with tons of supporting documents ( more than 1 kg !!!) . Maybe due to Brexit " fear" more than anything, really.
I personally find this unnecessary and time wasting process due to the fact that we acquire permanent residence automatically after 5 years of continuous " qualifying " period .
I am also aware that this is only to " prove " or makes things easier for travel, employment checks etc.
Anyways the money was taken from my bank account after a week. Ironically my employer( been with them more than 4 years) started doing employee screening and this has put me in a difficult position. How can I prove that I am legally entitled to work in the UK ??!

I called Home Office and was told that they are not sending any Confirmation of Applications ( CoA) anymore!!! and that the fee(£65) deduction will be used as a reference instead!! Can this be true ?!
What's your experience?
Please share your story?

P.S
I have sent a email requesting CoA with a special email that I found in this forum. Regrettably it's an automatic response email which says that a copy of CoA will be sent within 3 working days. Well we are almost a month away and still nothing

[member]

When does/did your EEA RC expire?

[Benito11]

My RC expired in July 2014. I don't see how is this going to affect my application knowing that l. "Didn't have" to apply for PR . With other words applying for PR is not a must!! ( I am yet to see something that proves otherwise)
Do you want to share your opinion?

[CR001]

My RC expired in July 2014. I don't see how is this going to affect my application knowing that l. "Didn't have" to apply for PR . With other words applying for PR is not a must!! ( I am yet to see something that proves otherwise)
Do you want to share your opinion?

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 13414.html

[Benito11]

Thank you Cr001,

Did you just reaffirmed my claim that no PR application was necessary or...? With other words an expired RC won't be a potential issue/ problem when people decide to apply for their PR?

Many thanks
B

[Benito11]

In fact I did travel with an " expired " RC back in January 2015 due to a family emergency.
On my return trip I got stopped by airline security and denied entry!! This was in Istanbul on my connection flight to the UK.
I had to apply for entry clearance or better known as Family Permit and was granted one free of charge within 3 working days
This might be an interesting information for those who want / have to travel with an expired RC . It is definitely possible but be prepared to fight back ....

[noajthan]

Confirmation of status, for example DCPR, may become more significant (for Union citizens and family members) as the hand of doom approaches the hour of Brexit final exit.

This is assuming that the traditional British sense of fair play comes to the fore because such transitiional arrangements typically depend on such EU documentation held at a certain key date;
(all yet TBC ofcourse).

And the optional and merely confirmatory DCPR is still a mandatory prerequiste for the privilege of citizenship.

[Richard W]

@Casa, @Noajthan:
You' re answering the wrong question. The question is not whether a PRC (or DCPR for the EEA spouse) is needed to apply for naturalisation, but whether a current RC is needed to apply for a PRC.

@OP:
Your employer is late doing the check. You should have been asked to show a residence card when your old one expired in 2014, and, again, when your Family Permit expired in July 2015. If your partner weren't really an EEA national, your employer would be liable for a hefty fine if the Home Office found out.

Under British law, there is no requirement to have a valid RC when applying for a PRC.

I am assuming that you are married (or in a civil partnership) with your 'partner'. If you are not, my understanding is that your right to work, if derived from your partner, expired with your family permit. (Residence cards, registration certificates and family permits act rather like visas when it comes to extended family members having the rights of family members, except that circumstances may automatically invalidate them.)

[noajthan]

@Casa, @Noajthan:
You' re answering the wrong question. The question is not whether a PRC (or DCPR for the EEA spouse) is needed to apply for naturalisation, but whether a current RC is needed to apply for a PRC.

@OP:
Your employer is late doing the check. You should have been asked to show a residence card when your old one expired in 2014, and, again, when your Family Permit expired in July 2015. If your partner weren't really an EEA national, your employer would be liable for a hefty fine if the Home Office found out.

Under British law, there is no requirement to have a valid RC when applying for a PRC.

I am assuming that you are married (or in a civil partnership) with your 'partner'. If you are not, my understanding is that your right to work, if derived from your partner, expired with your family permit. (Residence cards, registration certificates and family permits act rather like visas when it comes to extended family members having the rights of family members, except that circumstances may automatically invalidate them.)

It is very clear to me that in these uncertain and interesting times any/all EU documentation anyone can scrabble together is a worthwhile asset to have.
With the time I had available I responded as I saw fit which is to correct the misapprehension that applying for DCPR is timewasting and unnecessary.
This is the hive mind of the forum in action.

The question, if the somewhat jumbled first post can be categorised as a question, is not even clear on whether OP is married or not.
It seems to be proclaiming about the volume of documents of evidence for PRC.

Clearly if OP is an unmarried EFM, and has had no RC for appropriate time issued in relation to their specific current sponsor, then s/he has wasted not just the time filling in the monster PR form but also the past X years in UK as the HO response will be #PRrefusal.

That is likely to prove significant not only for any ambitions for citizenship but also in terms of having a legal basis to remain in UK and, consequently, in relation to any transitional arrangements for those (who thought they were) still 'in flight' on an EU migration trajectory.

[noajthan]

@Benito11 you mention your sponsor in terms of partner rather than spouse.
Are you married to your sponsor (making you a direct family member) or are you unmarried partners (so you are an extended family member)

[Benito11]

@Casa, @Noajthan:
You' re answering the wrong question. The question is not whether a PRC (or DCPR for the EEA spouse) is needed to apply for naturalisation, but whether a current RC is needed to apply for a PRC.

@OP:
Your employer is late doing the check. You should have been asked to show a residence card when your old one expired in 2014, and, again, when your Family Permit expired in July 2015. If your partner weren't really an EEA national, your employer would be liable for a hefty fine if the Home Office found out.

Under British law, there is no requirement to have a valid RC when applying for a PRC.

I am assuming that you are married (or in a civil partnership) with your 'partner'. If you are not, my understanding is that your right to work, if derived from your partner, expired with your family permit. (Residence cards, registration certificates and family permits act rather like visas when it comes to extended family members having the rights of family members, except that circumstances may automatically invalidate them.)

Hi Richard W,

You are right , my question was whether a current/ up to date RC is needed to apply for a PRC. I believe that it's not necessary although it might makes things easier, I understand that too.

I have been married with EU national ( Dutch citizen) for 10 years now and have two children together. We have always been in full time employment in Britain and still are as we speak although this might change soon for me as I got one week left to prove to my employer that I got right to work in the UK .
I am suprised that employers could suspend family members of EU nationals who are exercising treaty's rights( employed) in Britain . Surely this is illegal and they might face legal action just like Okuoimoise v City Facilities Management UK Ltd?!
What's your opinion?

Many thanks for your input

Benito11

[Benito11]

@Benito11 you mention your sponsor in terms of partner rather than spouse.
Are you married to your sponsor (making you a direct family member) or are you unmarried partners (so you are an extended family member)

Hi Noajthan,

I am married with the sponsor ( Dutch national) .

Many thanks for your time and input,

Benito11

[Benito11]

@Casa, @Noajthan:
You' re answering the wrong question. The question is not whether a PRC (or DCPR for the EEA spouse) is needed to apply for naturalisation, but whether a current RC is needed to apply for a PRC.

@OP:
Your employer is late doing the check. You should have been asked to show a residence card when your old one expired in 2014, and, again, when your Family Permit expired in July 2015. If your partner weren't really an EEA national, your employer would be liable for a hefty fine if the Home Office found out.

Under British law, there is no requirement to have a valid RC when applying for a PRC.

I am assuming that you are married (or in a civil partnership) with your 'partner'. If you are not, my understanding is that your right to work, if derived from your partner, expired with your family permit. (Residence cards, registration certificates and family permits act rather like visas when it comes to extended family members having the rights of family members, except that circumstances may automatically invalidate them.)

It is very clear to me that in these uncertain and interesting times any/all EU documentation anyone can scrabble together is a worthwhile asset to have.
With the time I had available I responded as I saw fit which is to correct the misapprehension that applying for DCPR is timewasting and unnecessary.
This is the hive mind of the forum in action.

The question, if the somewhat jumbled first post can be categorised as a question, is not even clear on whether OP is married or not. It seems to be proclaiming about the volume of documents of evidence for PRC.

Clearly if OP is an unmarried EFM, and has had no RC for appropriate time issued in relation to their specific current sponsor, then s/he has wasted not just the time filling in the monster PR form but also the past X years in UK as the HO response will be #PRrefusal.

That is likely to prove significant not only for any ambitions for citizenship but also in terms of having a legal basis to remain in UK and, consequently, in relation to any transitional arrangements for those (who thought they were) still 'in flight' on an EU migration trajectory.

Hi Noajthan ....

Apologies for not being clear in my first post . Just to reiterate again : I am married with the EU national.
I would really appreciate your opinion on this......( you said)
" Clearly if OP is an unmarried EFM, and has had no RC for appropriate time issued in relation to their specific current sponsor, then s/he has wasted not just the time filling in the monster PR form but also the past X years in UK as the HO response will be # Refusal ""

What if the person is married but has no valid/ up to date RC for the appropriate time ?! Has he/ she only wasted time ?

Thank you for your time and effort,

Benito 11

[secret.simon]

I am suprised that employers could suspend family members of EU nationals who are exercising treaty's rights( employed) in Britain . Surely this is illegal and they might face legal action just like Okuoimoise v City Facilities Management UK Ltd?!

The case law that you cite (2010) is almost certainly out of date.

Since the Immigration Act 2016, employers (and landlords since the Immigration Act 2014) are subject to heavy fines if they have employed (or housed) people illegally resident in the UK. The government has published an employer's guide to right to work checks, Page 33 of which states;

You should not employ any individual simply on the basis that they claim to be the family member of an EEA national. You should also be aware that not all family members of EEA nationals are permitted to work in the UK without restrictions.

Essentially, employers have been made immigration officers by proxy. But they are not doing to wade through documents such as your wife's passport and marriage certificate or the intricacies of EU immigration law. They will expect that you will have got a valid and up-to-date Residence Card from the Home Office that has already verified your rights.

[Benito11]

I am suprised that employers could suspend family members of EU nationals who are exercising treaty's rights( employed) in Britain . Surely this is illegal and they might face legal action just like Okuoimoise v City Facilities Management UK Ltd?!

The case law that you cite (2010) is almost certainly out of date.

Since the Immigration Act 2014, employers (and landlords) are subject to heavy fines if they have employed (or housed) people illegally resident in the UK. The government has published an employer's guide to right to work checks, Page 33 of which states;

You should not employ any individual simply on the basis that they claim to be the family member of an EEA national. You should also be aware that not all family members of EEA nationals are permitted to work in the UK without restrictions.

Essentially, employers have been made immigration officers by proxy. But they are not doing to wade through documents such as your wife's passport and marriage certificate or the intricacies of EU immigration law. They will expect that you will have got a valid and up-to-date Residence Card from the Home Office that has already verified your rights.

Hi Simon,

Thank you for your response. The point is I am not claiming to be a family member. I AM a spouse of a EU national. I can prove this by providing the marriage certificate etc thus I am permitted to work because my sponsor ( EU national) is exercising treaty rights I.e working full time . I believe that this EU directive is still intact and in force.
Surely employers ( HR specifically) should know this?
But most importantly can my employer suspend in the meantime?! Can I fight back or I have no ground to stand on? What's your opinion....?

[secret.simon]

To the best of my knowledge, the employer is required by UK law to verify that you have a documentary proof or "statutory excuse" to work.

Your right to work are dependent on many variables, such as whether you are married (and not subsequently divorced) from an EEA national, that the EEA national is themselves exercising treaty rights or has acquired PR, etc.

The point is, the employer is not interested in the nitty-gritty of whether as the family member of an EEA national you have the right to work in the UK or not. He is required to demonstrate that he has carried out the checks on you and that you provided the required proof that is listed as acceptable by the government.

If you wish to sue somebody, it would be the government, not the employer, who is following the law.

Also read Full guide for employers on preventing illegal working in the UK, particularly Annexes A & B.

[Benito11]

To the best of my knowledge, the employer is required by UK law to verify that you have a documentary proof or "statutory excuse" to work.

Your right to work are dependent on many variables, such as whether you are married (and not subsequently divorced) from an EEA national, that the EEA national is themselves exercising treaty rights or has acquired PR, etc.

The point is, the employer is not interested in the nitty-gritty of whether as the family member of an EEA national you have the right to work in the UK or not. He is required to demonstrate that he has carried out the checks on you and that you provided the required proof that is listed as acceptable by the government.

If you wish to sue somebody, it would be the government, not the employer, who is following the law.

Also read Full guide for employers on preventing illegal working in the UK, particularly Annexes A & B.

Thank you Simon,

On one side right to work rights / residence is automatically acquired as long as the sponsor/spouse ( EU national) is exercising treaty rights but on other side the " government " needs documented proof ( again not necessarily needed under EU regulations!!!).
All I need is proof from HO - simple letter!!

The thing is , I am being told " we are not issuing CoA anymore blag bla" or " the debit payment is sufficient evidence " or " let your employer call us directly " although other forum members have got a confirmation from HO!! It seems to me that every HO call centre worker/ caseworker is different.
Ironically, I sent mine EEA4 form together with my partners EEA3 on the same day and same envelope and she got an email confirmation with HO reference number but I haven't

I have a meeting with my employer on Monday and who knows I might be jobless soon

[secret.simon]

On one side right to work rights / residence is automatically acquired as long as the sponsor/spouse ( EU national) is exercising treaty rights but on other side the " government " needs documented proof ( again not necessarily needed under EU regulations!!!).

Remember that the employer needs to do these checks for all employees, including British citizens.

I have a meeting with my employer on Monday and who knows I might be jobless soon

Ask your employer to use the Employer Checking Service. It is for use if the employee "can’t show you their documents, eg they have an outstanding appeal or application with the Home Office".

[Benito11]

Thanks again Simon,

I am afraid that they did that already. In fact I tried to fill one myself today ( gov website) but hit the dead wall when asked to provide reference/ application number !

The point is, without reference number or CoA my employer might have to suspend me to cover their own back. I understand that.

I will post more on Monday . Cheers for your time and effort

Benito11

[Richard W]

To the best of my knowledge, the employer is required by UK law to verify that you have a documentary proof or "statutory excuse" to work.

Check your source, and please cite it if you find it, for

Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof.

I don't know whether the legality of the system of civil penalties has yet been tested in the courts. It's not so very different from the system of carrier liability, which makes visa national spouses of EEA nationals practically dependent on family permits.

The government right-to-work guidance on employment of those with an obvious a right to work but without the approved documentation basically says 'up-to-you'.

I have a suspicion that some employers have found a work around Okuoimoise v City Facilities Management UK Ltd. The work around would be to make employment conditional on providing a statutory excuse. My conditions of unemployment are unhelpful in this respect, as my employer is able to restrict employment in the UK to British citizens.

[Benito11]

Hi Richard,

Interesting message. Thank you for that. I am just a bit confused with this last bit. Can I still use Okuomoise v City Facilities Management Ltd for my case or not anymore because of changes in 2014?! On other hand the EU directive which clearly states that " providing a documented evidence " (a CoA in my case) shouldn't be a precondition , as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof?!!

Can my employment be still conditional on providing " statutory excuse " given the fact that I have been employed with them for more than 4 years??

Lastly restricting employment to British citizens only is surely discriminatory at the moment?? In a post Brexit period ( with article 50 triggered) this might be different.

The bottom line is, can my employer suspend/ dismiss me for not providing a reference/ CoA from HO while my application ( EEA4) is ongoing?!!
If you have first hand experience then please share your story...........

Benito11

[noajthan]

Hi Noajthan ....

Apologies for not being clear in my first post . Just to reiterate again : I am married with the EU national.
I would really appreciate your opinion on this......( you said)
" Clearly if OP is an unmarried EFM, and has had no RC for appropriate time issued in relation to their specific current sponsor, then s/he has wasted not just the time filling in the monster PR form but also the past X years in UK as the HO response will be # Refusal ""

What if the person is married but has no valid/ up to date RC for the appropriate time ?! Has he/ she only wasted time ?

Thank you for your time and effort,

Benito 11

If married you have the full weight and power of EU law behind you.
Ofcourse an ill-informed, untrained, inexperienced, time-poor (or similar) employer or HR gel may not see it that way.

Yes, employers can and do suspend people; some people do lose their jobs (regardless of the rights and wrongs of it).

As we live in an adversarial society all you can do is fight back.
If you lose your job, file a case and take them for all they've got:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/sponsor ... dismissal/

[Benito11]

Hi Noajthan ....

Apologies for not being clear in my first post . Just to reiterate again : I am married with the EU national.
I would really appreciate your opinion on this......( you said)
" Clearly if OP is an unmarried EFM, and has had no RC for appropriate time issued in relation to their specific current sponsor, then s/he has wasted not just the time filling in the monster PR form but also the past X years in UK as the HO response will be # Refusal ""

What if the person is married but has no valid/ up to date RC for the appropriate time ?! Has he/ she only wasted time ?

Thank you for your time and effort,

Benito 11

If married you have the full weight and power of EU law behind you.
Ofcourse an ill-informed, untrained, inexperienced, time-poor (or similar) employer or HR gel may not see it that way.

Yes, employers can and do suspend people; some people do lose their jobs (regardless of the rights and wrongs of it).

As we live in an adversarial society all you can do is fight back.
If you lose your job, file a case and take them for all they've got:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/sponsor ... dismissal/

Thank you Noajthan,

I am well aware of Okuoimoise v city Facilities Management UK .... It's just that other forum member ( moderator ??) said this :

""The case law that you cite (2010) is almost certainly out of date.

Since the Immigration Act 2016, employers (and landlords since the Immigration Act 2014) are subject to heavy fines if they have employed (or housed) people illegally resident in the UK. The government has published an employer's guide to right to work checks, Page 33 of which states;""

I don't know why is it out of date but I am certainly in the same situation( Okuoimoise case) at the moment. Well, let's see what happens on Monday as I got a meeting with the General Manager of the company.

I'll keep you updated.....

Thanks,
Benito11

[Richard W]

Interesting message. Thank you for that. I am just a bit confused with this last bit. Can I still use Okuomoise v City Facilities Management Ltd for my case or not anymore because of changes in 2014?! On other hand the EU directive which clearly states that " providing a documented evidence " (a CoA in my case) shouldn't be a precondition , as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof?!!

I haven't noticed any changes in the right to work resulting from 2014 and 2016 immigration acts, though there may be some subtlety in rights resulting from laws not applying to one. The biggest change, in the 2016 act, is in the criminal offence of knowingly employing an illegal worker, whereby employing an illegal worker is now illegal if the employer had reasonable cause to believe the worker would be working illegally, but didn't actually know.

The injustice behind the Okuomoise case remains; the offender is the Home Office. At the moment the law favours the employee and places the employer in an invidious position. He risks either dismissing/suspending unfairly or paying heavy fines. As I say, I fear there is a way of ensuring that it is the employee who suffers.

Can my employment be still conditional on providing " statutory excuse " given the fact that I have been employed with them for more than 4 years??

Seek legal advice. They haven't enforced any such condition, so if it has already been in your terms of employment, I think they may be in a weak position. On the other hand, adding it to your conditions of employment with due notice may not be unreasonable. It is not unreasonable for it to be a continuing requirement - he should have been nagging you to get a new residence card in 2014.

Lastly restricting employment to British citizens only is surely discriminatory at the moment?

It's similar to refusing to appoint a Moslem as a vicar - the protected characteristic is relevant to the job. Most ancillary services have been contracted out.

The bottom line is, can my employer suspend/ dismiss me for not providing a reference/ CoA from HO while my application ( EEA4) is ongoing?!!

Yes. An employer can always dismiss an employee. The question is how much it is going to cost them in compensation and fines.

Their policy may make sense if they aim to become a Tier 2 sponsor.

[Benito11]

Well chaps, as expected I got dismissed on Monday as I failed to provide CoA or a Home office reference number to my employer.
Despite the Marriage certificate, prove that I live together with my EU spouse, our children's UK birth certificates, Post office tracking number of my EEA4 application, bank statement showing deduction of £65 from an " government institution" , copy of Home Office EU directive,copy of the Okuoimose vs City Facilities case , nothing helped. Nada. Niks.

The presence of Unite union representatives was useless too.

I got dissmised on spot. I will be " re-engaged " back if I can prove within 6 months that I am entitled to work legally in the UK but I will lose I quote " length of service " with other words I'll start as a new entrants!!!

I got a employment solicitor who will write a letter( costing a eye watering £500!) requesting them to reinstate my back and if that fails then Employment Tribunal is the next option . ( takes at least 8-9 months I am told)

I really am confused at the moment. Therefore would appreciate if you guys could give me feedback ( good or bad) . Especially Noajthan, Simon, Richard .

Many thanks,

Benito11