why I voted for brexit

[zakir1988]

There are many reasons why I have voted brexit but I'm happy we are going out of the European union.

Since growing up born here in UK London it was good being in European union until now it's not very good as inflation is rising, immigration and companies are exploiting the Zero hour contract, most compenies like employing people from someone who is from an European country cause they think they can work longer hours for minimum wage etc...


It's was good being in the European union in the 1990s but I feel immigration is to blame to many people are here it's not fair they got to get benefits, housing, came to UK with an disability claiming DLA etc.. as in the own country they wouldn't get the help they needed etc. .
Most People would agree with me

One thing that got me angry about is why people from European Union can be like someone like who is an British Born person or from outside European union who has got ILR the British government should have given a time limit to the Europeans living in UK before they where allowed to claim any benefits, tax credits etc... I know they have just started doing this.

For example when my dad came to UK from Bangladesh he had to live a number of years before home office granted him ILR my mum came with my nan my parents had tough time but they where so grateful to the British community

I feel many Europeans who came here in UK don't integrate with the British community they just work send the money back home not like our parents who came from an non European country they really did integrate with the British way of life.

I know we will loose some of our immigration rights etc. . But the change I feel is For the better it will take time to adjust to things.

This is my opinion.

[secret.simon]

Be careful with such posts. Anxiety-provoking posts and any post suggesting that all immigration is not entirely positive without even a scintilla of negativity for all involved will get you marked as a right-winger. That is a term of great derision, if not of absolute damnation.

On a serious note, I am aware of many non-EEA migrants, particularly those from the Commonwealth countries, who feel the same way. One of my work colleagues, who did not just vote for but also campaigned for Leave, felt that people from Commonwealth countries have to go through many hoops to attain British citizenship, while EEA citizens just waltz in on the basis of the EEA passport and don't appreciate British citizenship as much. It is also felt that there is a lot more in common between people from Commonwealth countries and the UK in terms of language, appreciation of similar judicial systems, etc, as opposed to between EEA citizens and British citizens, whose cultural expectations do not match to the same extent.

Again, remember that the UK has been in this position before. Before 1962, anybody with a Commonwealth passport could waltz into the UK with their Commonwealth passport. As the winds of change swept the world, there was a fear of a tidal wave of immigration and the rules were tightened quite a bit between 1962 and 1983, with the Immigration Act 1971 still being the law governing non-EEA immigration to the UK.

The UK entered the EEC in 1973, in the company of countries which were on par in terms of broad lifestyle. Whether the A8 & subsequent A2 expansions was a wise decision will be for historians in a hundred years to reflect on. Be that as it may, now that it is again the desire of the British people to tighten the rules on immigration, it was made very clear that the only way to do that was by leaving the Single Market. Thence the road that we are on.

I have no doubt that in another 40-50 years, we will be revisiting the same debate again. Plus ça change...

Now stepping aside, waiting for the fireworks...

[noajthan]

In the words of the immortal Voltaire (or perhaps not),

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Will probably not quite go as far as to the death either. But I hear your pain.

[mkhan2525]

Brexit could be a blessing for Commonwealth citizens.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 75221.html

[secret.simon]

It seems the OP's views may not have been an aberration.

Inside the British Asian Brexit vote – and why it contains a few surprises

[Obie]

It is difficult to see how OP's post can be given the description you have atributed to it.

His views bore a significant digression from reality or mainstream.

Figure clearly indicate that European work hard and pay they way in the UK, contrary to what the OP has stated. Immigrant are mostly able bodied and make positive contribution, rather than claiming disability benefit.
Furthermore OP failed to appreciate that the rights that EU citizens have in the UK, UK citizens have in Spain , where they use up a huge amount of Spanish budget in Hospital bills, and they also have similar rights in France, Germany, Netherlands.

The EU courts have favoured the rights of Brits living in other memberstates, like the case of Levin, Metock.

So this is not one way traffic.

I am sure OP should do a bit of reality check, revert back to his history if he was from my generation. I am sure perhaps his parents must have told him about Enoch Powell, Peter Griffiths and the 1964 Smethwick ELection. He must have been told about no Irish , no blacks no dogs. I am sure Asian will be most aware of Idi Amin.

So it will be utterly foolish for any minority person to target European citizens in any way, and be under the illusion or illusion that their condition will improve significantly when they are gone.

Yesterday it was the Asians and Blacks that bore the wrath of Enoch Powell, today it is the Eastern European that are bearing the wrath of the Over Zealot Tories. Once they are gone, who knows who will be next in line.

Sorry for digging into history, just that i feel humanity needs to remember the past, and learn from it.

[prforyou]

EU free movement is based on reciprocity, fee paying club membership, and a huge single market advantages that have helped the UK tremendously (also, there are much better 'benefits' and living standards to be had in many other EU countries, e.g. in my home country child benefit is 190Euros, here it is a ridiculous 82£ per month).

It just shows the ignorance in certain jealous communities who are not able to grasp the wider implications and advantages of EU free movement. Their countries are not in a reciprocal economic club, so why should their movement be free.

It may yet become freer down the line, when global Britain goes into free trade agreements with INdia or so, and the Indian or whatever other government demands movement liberties in exchange for free trade.

[Maple1]

According to a Non-EU spouse of an British citizen, the british spouse voted for brexit is due to too many EU people are in this country taking their jobs. The Non-EU spouse was an agreement with the British Citizen spouse's view. Also added with a complain about the minimum of £18,000 salary the british spouse must have in order her the non-EU spouse to in this country and last but not least, EU citizens do not required a visa like non-EU and spend around £2000 per year to renew their visa.

Both couple does not live nor work in London.

Effectively, if the british spouse voted for brexit for all the reasons above. Then he clearly did not do his due diligence to outweigh what is better for their situation. If it is about jobs then the most simplest thing is to skill up and if it is for immigration then the British spouse is voting for the non-EU spouse out of UK. Sad for the non-EU spouse to hear when I pointed this out.

[CR001]

According to a Non-EU spouse of an British citizen, the british spouse voted for brexit is due to too many EU people are in this country taking their jobs. The Non-EU spouse was an agreement with the British Citizen spouse's view. Also added with a complain about the minimum of £18,000 salary the british spouse must have in order her the non-EU spouse to in this country and last but not least, EU citizens do not required a visa like non-EU and spend around £2000 per year to renew their visa. It does NOT cost £2000 per year to renew a spouse visa. Suggest get the correct facts before posting.

Both couple does not live nor work in London.

Effectively, if the british spouse voted for brexit for all the reasons above. Then he clearly did not do his due diligence to outweigh what is better for their situation. If it is about jobs then the most simplest thing is to skill up and if it is for immigration then the British spouse is voting for the non-EU spouse out of UK. Sad for the non-EU spouse to hear when I pointed this out.

[Obie]

I find these ill-informed and ignorant views most depressing.

Some of these people come to this forum and comment on things they have no clues about, comments which are not even worthy of a response.

[CR001]

I find these ill-informed and ignorant views most depressing.

Some of these people come to this forum and comment on things they have no clues about, comments which are not even worthy of a response.

100% agree Obie

[nachfee]

I am so sorry but your reasons are baseless. Is it a good idea coming here to vent out when this is a website used by many to settle as a EEA? You will get an emotional response... at least, you look like you want to get one.

It is much more factual and realistic to blame your government and your MP (if voted for zero hours contracts) than European citizens, they are the law-makers after all. I highly doubt any person would be happy with an uncertain job, European or non-European. It is quite ludicrous this statement, I have to say.

It is very sad you as a British citizen and still until today a European citizen, has failed to realised the great advantages of being part of the EU such has been able to work and live in 27 other countries, that is something an Australian dreams about. I am a Non-EEA citizen married to a EEA citizen (with British ancestry but decided to stay European) with many European friends here. Not one has claimed benefits, most of them speak at least three languages and are all professionals and do incredible work. Most of them do either charitable work, social work, public sector work (nursing) or tourism. Most of them have left already and after Brexit, it was an exodus, at least in my circle of friends. We are pretty much the last ones here because we have a business. They all left after the 26th of June and we are planning to do the same during the next 2 years.
They are either doing Erasmus (a great opportunity that many British seem to not have enjoyed and probably, know nothing about) and got better jobs in Europe because, believe it or not there are much better jobs in Europe for undergraduate polyglots. They just stayed here because they have friends, loved ones, got married, etc. My friends that left were either single or had no kids... But trust me, those with kids or in relationships are thinking about it, it isn't that difficult to move and the mood it has created, this Brexit, it is far more complicated and sour than the complications relocating to another country brings.

You are talking about a very small group of European citizens when it comes to benefits. In 2015 it was said at least 87% of benefit takers were British citizens. It's all online. Just google it. I highly doubt even half of that number are EU citizens because who would go through paying £1000 to get naturalised?.

Just a side note to clarify naturalisation from a EEA perspective: This can only happen after continuously living here for 6 years. The main four ways to apply as are as follows:
1) and 2) As a self-employed or worker:
Stay here for 5 continuous years (after acquiring EEA2 permit) exercising treaty rights (yes!, paying taxes!) or
3) and 4) As self-sufficient or student (which requires health insurance, yep! against European law, yep! Not cheap!)
So, who would then be going through all these shenanigans for a British passport which still costs £1000? If they still got the right to stay here?
Therefore, most of those "British citizens" getting benefits are either true British or non-EEA (need papers to stay right?).
A small percentage of Europeans applied for British passports, it was seen as a waste of money (of course, not any more)

Benefits for Europeans? Since 2014 (not retrospective), EU citizens do not get more than six-months job seekers allowance and get no housing benefits at all.
Also, if these European citizens were the "scroungers" you make them to be, they would go to Germany or France, their benefit system is far more generous than the British one even so doubling in some aspects. And for family members? I am not entitled to benefits (neither I need them, I rather clean toilets), I have a EEA2 residence card at the moment...
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/be ... -i-qualify

You say you are from Bangladesh. The biggest immigration into the UK is non-EEA citizens specially from India and Pakistan. At the moment, it is Polish people (only 0.5% more than Indians) but for a very very very long time it has been South East Asians, therefore to be annoyed about this is ridiculous. I mean, getting annoyed at people who have been coming here for the past 10 years instead of 50 years? Right...
These is also the part of the world with the most sham marriages to get British papers. When I applied it was bad in the tens of thousands. This is the main reason as to why they ask for so many personal documents (even for EEA applications, it helps) The reason they have cracked down the British immigration law path to get papers it's because of the sham marriages so unfortunately there is your answer.

Integration? I have met a huge amount of people from South East Asia that have been here for decades and can't even speak English. You go to some parts of London and its basically being in Pakistan or India - I understand some English people when they get annoyed about that (then I tell them to blame colonialism) I for one do like globalisation and multiculturalism, I love what London have become - a mini Earth. Though for you to say that Europeans don't integrate is so incredibly rich. I am sure your parents and many people in your community have integrated fine but many haven't, bringing even their tribal thinking into the country, having in-fights in mosques because rival families were living here. I tell you because I know this happened as I have friends who are Muslims and stopped going to the mosque because of this.

Also have you met British migrants abroad? Many don't even speak the language! Going to south Spain is insane how many live in their bubble. My sister lives in Portugal and most of her British friends don't speak the language. I am sure that there are many British who have integrated but it is worth mentioning. I even said to one Englishman "Hola" and the guy flipped because I spoke Spanish to him, "I don't speak Spanish! Don't speak that language to me", I mean WTF? I swear this is a true story.

Europeans have far more things in common with other Europeans than with South East Asians, I'm sorry.

This was just an opportunity for a minority group to get a threatening minority group out of their way... There is far greater immigration numbers from non-EEA countries than from EEA countries. This is a fact.

Once the whole "blame the EU" thing doesn't work any more, I am sure they will turn to something else. Most probably another immigration group too blame all ills on. Who are second in the immigration list? Pakistanis and Indians and everyone that looks like them.
The whole "Blaming others" it's too much in the air at the moment, it is a lot easier to blame others for our problems than ourselves. We are so contempt with being kicked in the backside all the time by our governments, we are the most compliant people in Europe while our neighbours complain, protest, strike in masses. We have the audacity to then blame those who are working among us than those that are above us making the laws. You couldn't make this up!
So are EU citizens also to blame about the raise on taxes for self-employed? While corporations like Google and Apple have avoided millions in taxes?

What "got you angry" was a reciprocal agreement of which 1 million British citizens are enjoying, whom many enjoy with paying zero in taxes because they are retirees and use their health system with no health insurance. If you want to come here as a self-sufficient EEA citizen (or student), you HAVE to - by law - have a Health insurance to be able to apply for a permanent residence 5 years later. That law is very anti-European law and many people tried to argue against it with little effect. This law is not implemented in France, Spain, where many British live.

What's the problem with sending money back home? You think Europeans live for free here and pay no council tax, no tv license, no VAT, no bills, no phone contracts, no transport, no food, no local entertainment, no restaurants, nothing? ALL the money is send back home? I HIGHLY doubt that.

Have you read about Cambridge Analytica, ownd by a friend of Nigel farage, which helped fueled emotional propaganda in the UK and the US by getting into your social media accounts?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-trump

In any case, I hope it goes well. It does annoy me people that wish for the worst to proof their point. I do think it will be a very very difficult deal agreement and talks - Greenland took ages and Canada as well.. This will be far more complicated that any of the current 28 nations have ever experienced. I highly doubt it will take 2 years. As for immigration, this will stop EU immigration in 2 years but it will not stop immigration from outside the EU which is still higher.

I wonder Zakir, as you are Bangladeshi, I assume you are Muslim. Do you agree with the witch-hunt the Muslims are suffering now in most of the world because of the ideology of a few? How do you feel about the generalisation of all Muslims? Or the travel ban in the US?
Isn't it a result of pure ignorance, misinterpretation and misinformation?
I think it ring bells with Europeans and the generalisation that they "all steal jobs" and "get benefits".
If anything these two parallels teaches us all how important is to seek different media outlets to get slightly closer to the truth and how it is our responsibility to find, seek and get as much information to formulate our own ideas.
Sorry for the long post.
Best of luck

[secret.simon]

Europeans have far more things in common with other Europeans than with South East Asians, I'm sorry.

It is a very long post, with many points that can be disputed. But the point that is very significantly incorrect is the one quoted above.

While continental Europeans have a lot in common with each other, I do not think it is true of the British. Indeed, the majority of the post pretty much underscores my point. The British have their own identity, which is significantly grounded in their speaking English and so they are far more likely to be at home in Australia than in Poland, for example.

Continental Europe has had a history of being invaded, overrun and ruled from other capitals. At different times, Madrid has been ruled from Vienna (Charles V/I), the Low Countries from Madrid (Philip II of Spain), Warsaw from Paris (Napolean I) and Paris from Berlin (Hitler). So Europe has not had strong sturdy national borders and hence there has not been a strong sense of nationality on the continent. Hence Juncker's outburst on national borders was completely understandable. Indeed, Luxembourg, because of its position, has seen its fair share of invading armies. Belgium was the Cockpit of Europe (unlike the House of Commons, which is the cockpit of the UK).

The UK, even Scotland, have never been in that situation. Clear blue water (literally; the English Channel) separates us from the Continent. Only thrice in the past thousand years has there been a person on the British throne who has Continental interests - Philip II of Spain, who was named King of England by his wife, Mary I, William III of Orange, who was simultaneously Stadtholder of the Seven Provinces (the Netherlands) and the Hanoverians, who were Electors of Hanover (surprisingly). Even in these circumstances, Parliament took measures to ensure that influence from the King's continental realms did not affect England/Great Britain/the UK significantly. The UK, specifically England, tried to keep itself as divorced of continental developments as possible, with its main interests keeping its Near-Abroad (the Low countries, France and Spain) in balance and in check.

Even Scotland, the most Europhile part of Great Britian (the island, not the country), was never ruled from the Continent. It had strong leanings towards France (The Auld Alliance) and shared kings and queens (Mary Queen of Scots was also a dowager Queen of France), but even it kept itself aloof from Continental politics, focussing on fighting the English (stop smirking about history repeating itself).

So, you see, I think you are mistaken in thinking that the British have much in common with continental Europeans. The French may be at home in Warsaw (Napolean's army), the Swedish in Rome (Queen Christina), but the British are most at home in Canada or Australia, even India or Pakistan than they are in Estonia or Hungary.

PS: People from the Indian subcontinent are South Asians. People from Indo-China are South-East Asians.

[Obie]

I see, well where does the Roman originate from? did they not once rule this island called Great Britain.

I thought Anglo-Saxon came from Germany did they not.

There is nothing superior about Britain in comparison to its continental partners.

I know there are empire mentality still present in the minds of some in the Tories, but i see nothing superior about England in the strict sense of things.

[prforyou]

Secret.Simon, your historic view is slightly limited, as Obie already mentioned: the Romans, the Saxons, plus also do not forget the Vikings ... There has really been too much dominance by other countries and powers over the Englishman, and that perhaps is the reason why they have such an awkward , almost broken sense of nationality.

There is a very long history of millennia and centuries of European influence on your island, and vice versa. Also, many royal families connected the continental powers and England through uncountable marriages, especially with French aristocracy.

Even, a much longer time ago, your country was not an island but connected with the Continent. Look into 'Doggerland'.

I know many English people who feel at home on the continent but not in their home country. You are simplifying.

[rooibos]

Secret.Simon is correct. The British are clearly Asians. At least here in Birmingham.

[secret.simon]

The British are clearly Asians. At least here in Birmingham.

A more correct way of formulating that sentence is that the Asians in Birmingham are clearly British.

the Romans, the Saxons, plus also do not forget the Vikings

I do not see your point. All continental invaders, except that they did not come from Brussels...and the last successful invasion was about a thousand years ago (1066 and all that), as opposed to the continental Europeans marching through each other's country once every few years. I am raking my head to think of the continental European countries who have not been invaded and who have not had their borders changed in the last hundred years. The only two that come to mind are Switzerland and Sweden (and of course the microstates). No wonder they signed up to Schengen. Their borders are so useless they might as well as abolish them.

There is nothing superior about Britain in comparison to its continental partners.

I am not saying we are superior. I am saying that we are different. And we need to be treated thus.

One of the reasons that this referendum was lost was that the EU was not willing to accommodate the breadth of our differences in the UK-EU deal that David Cameron got back. Had they been more accommodating, perhaps we would not have been at this stage. The EU may have its principles, but it needs to realise that it can not live by principles alone and needs to be a less controlling and whole lot looser, otherwise it will end up a loser. I think that Juncker's five options for the future of the EU need to be reflected on by the EU, with or without Brexit.

In any case, even when the EU leaves, I think the Visegrad group of countries will continue to rattle the cage of Brussels control. Poland may love freedom of movement when it has a lot of emigrants, we will see how they like both Brussels micro-management and an influx of immigrants.

I know there are empire mentality still present

I don't see how you can condemn the British Empire and praise the Brussels Empire. If you are being ruled by a country whose interests are not aligned to yours, I would have thought that you would have sided with the colonised, whether it was Kenya (ruled by the British) or the UK (ruled by Brussels). Incidentally, it is fairly obvious to any student of European history that the EU itself is the successor empire to t he Roman and Holy Roman Empires. Thence the significance of the Treaty of Rome, just as the A8 accession treaties were signed in the Stoa in Athens, to symbolise the democracy of the new member-states.

It does not matter about having elected representation. Scotland is unhappy with rule from London, in spite of having elected representatives in London and it seems Alex Salmond would rather go in for an unelected fax democracy (in the EEA). Ironically, Scotland would have even less say in EU law if it joins the EEA than it does in the UK. And yet, you back Scottish independence.

[mkhan2525]

Europeans have far more things in common with other Europeans than with South East Asians, I'm sorry

It was people from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh which fought and died with the British during the World War to defend this country. What have the Europeans ever done for Britain that they suddenly have more in common with us?

After Brexit Britain should give priority to ties with these countries and the other Commonwealth countries.

[Wanderer]

Europeans have far more things in common with other Europeans than with South East Asians, I'm sorry

It was people from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh which fought and died with the British during the World War to defend this country. What have the Europeans ever done for Britain that they suddenly have more in common with us?

After Brexit Britain should give priority to ties with these countries and the other Commonwealth countries.

Not forgetting the French, Poles, Czechs, Greeks, Belgians, Soviets and many others......

[secret.simon]

Not forgetting the French, Poles, Czechs, Greeks, Belgians, Soviets and many others......

Indeed. Polish intelligence played a vital role in breaking the Enigma code and thus helped change the course of WWII. The French Maquis distracted the German Army and helped in the D-Day landings.

[Obie]

I don't see how you can condemn the British Empire and praise the Brussels Empire. .

There is nothing like Brussels empire, or at least it is nothing in comparison to the British Empire you are seeking to compare or contrast it with.

Unlike the British Empire which was a symbol of oppression, example of which is the Mau mau revolution in Kenya, the Rhodesia situation, the situation in India, some of these nations i have mentioned lost their life and blood to free them self of the effect of the British Empire.

With the EU, memberstates are not forced to join, they apply and they are approved. In the case of Britain, the first application was declined and following a reapplication, they succeeded the second time round.

The problem with the British Empire is that it was impose on its subject, they never voted on it, they never approved it, and were not given an opportunity to hold a referendum as to whether they wish to endure its effect.

For example the Mau Mau were beaten, mutilated, raped and abused in the most horrific way when they sought to rebel against the British empire rule in Kenya not too long ago.

I am sure you would know the situation of Gold Coast and how Kwame Nkruma fought, the situation of the Australian Aborigine.

So i think it is totally wrong, and demonstrate a clear ignorance on your part to compare EU and the British Empire.

You just need to look at the Statement that Teressa May made today about Scotland's Referendum to enhance your understanding of the nature of the empire.

I am not sure which generation you are from, but i guess you are from the 50s or 60s generation, so i expect you should understand this more, than someone like me, form the late 80s generation, who merely read about these horrors.

I do expect you to know better.

[rooibos]

I don't see how you can condemn the British Empire and praise the Brussels Empire.

Jeez, Simon! I thought you were better than this! How wrong I was!

So, you're saying that Britain was militarily invaded by the European Army, their people raped, beaten and killed, their oil, gold and diamond mines confiscated, their political opponents interned into concentration camps?

Because this is what the good old fashioned British Empire did, not the European Union.

[secret.simon]

One need not invade and pillage a country to make it a part of an empire. An empire is defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as "a group of countries ruled by a single person, government, or country", while the OED defines it as "An extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state".

Is the EU a group of countries? - I think we can all agree that it is.

Is the EU governed by an oligarchy (Cambridge:"a small group of powerful people"; OED: "A small group of people having control of a country or organization") that can not be got rid of easily? I would say that there are certainly grounds for thinking so.

Does the EU have a single government? - Opinions can differ, but EU law does override any conflicting national laws.

Does the EU have an elite class of people? - EU politicians and civil servants are generally immune from legal action in their home countries unless the EU gives permission. They have their own income tax rates and are immune from national taxation.

Another class that is favoured by the EU are those that we see on these forums. EU citizens who have exercised EU treaty rights are privileged over citizens who haven't.

I think that is enough similarities to suggest a Brussels Empire. One need not be invaded to be a part of an empire.

[Obie]

Well i suppose you are now implicitly withdrawing your comparison of the EU to the british empire.

I believe decency and integrity dictates that a person should be prepared to make concessions when their views and analysis is so flawed and devoid of sense, that no reasonable individual can be expected to express them.

For similar reasons given in my previous post, EU is not an Oligarchy either, but at least that is less insensitive than the inflammatory and baseless comparison you had earlier espoused.

EU has institutions, has parliament, has a court has a council and has a commission. All of these institutions are not controlled by one country.

The Council is represented by all the member states who are equals, the parliament represented by all member states based on their size, the commission represented by all 28 member states. The Court of Justice has 28 judges from Each of the states.
The commission swear allegiance to the CJEU, to uphold the treaties and act in the interest of the EU and not its individual memberstates.

The EU as an institutions is comprised of 28 member states who voluntary joined the EU and decides to confer some of its sovereignty to the EU for the good of all its member states.

It is clearly different from an Oligarchy which is mostly controlled based on wealth and influence, nobility and has little democratic platform.

If by virtue of it seize of an EU country and the amount of money it spends, a particular nation may have more influence, then that is not Oligarchy according to the strict definition of that term.

A nation state cannot be defined as Oligarchy.

[prforyou]

Apart from failed historical arguments that have been proposed here (even the English language evolved from the language of the Saxons and Danish tribes), unfortunately Brexit has closed the wrong borders. The source of (home-grown) terrorism in the UK is that of Commonwealth migration (similar to that in France due to its colonial history with North Africa), as yesterday's events have shown again.