Tier 5 to EEA RC as Unmarried Partner - Various Questions

[kovacsma]

Hi all,

Whereas I currently hold an EEA passport, and live in the UK, my partner is in the country on a Tier 5 Visa. We understand that (currently) the routes for her permanent stay here include the EEA FM or EFM visas, but we won't be eligible until 16 months from now, when we will have a total of 2 years living together. Obviously with Brexit, anything I say or any advice anyone gives is pure speculation as to whetehr it will still hold then; nonetheless...

I am hoping I can get a few items clarified, especially about the EEA EFM route. For some context: We are looking to retain a lawyer eventually to handle the process; and my partner's Tier 5 YMS visa will expire 4 months after we become eligible for EEA EFM visa (relatively small window here...)

1. If we make the application and then her Tier 5 visa expires before we get approval for the EFM visa, what happens to her rights? For work? For travel?

2. In September 2016, there was a 3-week period where I had moved to the UK, but her Tier 5 visa did not start until 3-weeks later. Since we are counting on the 4 months prior to moving to the UK as part of our 2-year period living together, would this be problematic, or can we provide documentation to explain around that?

3. The EEA EFM visa is slightly less of a sure thing than the FM visa, if I understand correctly; and if you are rejected, there are no grounds for appeal. What options would we have for recourse in such an event? I assume she would lose all rights to live and work unless we were immediately married?

4. Going through a lawyer who specializes in this application seems to be a much more assured route. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? ...Because it's really expensive and we would hate to lose a massive fee! We plan on collecting a ridiculous paper trail showing travel and activities, going back as early as 24 months before moving to the UK (so ~4 years before the application); we feel like we want to overwhelm the Home Office reviewer (and whichever lawyer we get) with documents, to be on the safe side. Is this going to help our case, or hinder it? Are there a lot of cases where a well-prepared application, completed and reviewed by a lawyer, gets rejected?

Thanks for your insight!

[secret.simon]

At a time when a week is a long time in immigration, you are very brave in looking forward 16 months. There is a chance that there will be an Immigration Bill catering to EEA nationals resident in the UK as of a cutoff date in the next session of Parliament. Such a bill will provide clarity as to next steps for EEA migrants. Be aware that so far, all proposals have suggested a cutoff date of the date of the referendum, I am guessing on the logic that those who arrived before the referendum were not expecting Brexit whereas those arriving after were fully aware of Brexit and that their EEA rights would come to an end soon.

1. If we make the application and then her Tier 5 visa expires before we get approval for the EFM visa, what happens to her rights? For work? For travel?

An EFM's right to reside in the UK only starts when s/he is issued a Residence Card(RC). Between the expiry of the Tier 5 visa and the issual of the EFM RC, your partner will be an overstayer and have no legal right to reside in the UK, let alone work. If s/he were to leave the UK, s/he would not be allowed back in based on the fact that she had a pending application.

Note that were the two of you married, your partner's right would arise not from the RC, but from the date of your marriage.

2. In September 2016, there was a 3-week period where I had moved to the UK, but her Tier 5 visa did not start until 3-weeks later. Since we are counting on the 4 months prior to moving to the UK as part of our 2-year period living together, would this be problematic, or can we provide documentation to explain around that?

You will need to explain it, but I don't think there will be too many issues about it. You are partners, not joined at the hip.

3. The EEA EFM visa is slightly less of a sure thing than the FM visa, if I understand correctly; and if you are rejected, there are no grounds for appeal. What options would we have for recourse in such an event? I assume she would lose all rights to live and work unless we were immediately married?

Reapply or resettle in another EEA country.

we feel like we want to overwhelm the Home Office reviewer (and whichever lawyer we get) with documents, to be on the safe side.

I would be cautious with that approach. You may inadvertently provide them with proof against your case as well and they could use some document to reject you. It is a delicate tight rope balance.

[CR001]

As you say, no can predict 16 months in advance. Will answer what I can.

1. If we make the application and then her Tier 5 visa expires before we get approval for the EFM visa, what happens to her rights? For work? For travel?

When you say you hold an EEA passport, I assume this is NOT a British passport correct??? You appear to be unmarried partners. Once her Tier 5 expires, she has no rights, cannot work etc until her residence card is approved. Bear in mind Brexit process too. Don't forget, as an unmarried partner, you need 24 months worth of evidence of durable relationship 'akin to marriage'.

2. In September 2016, there was a 3-week period where I had moved to the UK, but her Tier 5 visa did not start until 3-weeks later. Since we are counting on the 4 months prior to moving to the UK as part of our 2-year period living together, would this be problematic, or can we provide documentation to explain around that?

Were you living together overseas and have documentary evidence to prove it?

3. The EEA EFM visa is slightly less of a sure thing than the FM visa, if I understand correctly; and if you are rejected, there are no grounds for appeal. What options would we have for recourse in such an event? I assume she would lose all rights to live and work unless we were immediately married?

Residence card for applications within the UK. EEA Family Permit is an application outside the UK. Once her Tier 5 expires, she has no right to reside as an unmarried partner. If residence card is refused, you might have difficulty in getting HO approval to marry.

4. Going through a lawyer who specializes in this application seems to be a much more assured route. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? ...Because it's really expensive and we would hate to lose a massive fee! We plan on collecting a ridiculous paper trail showing travel and activities, going back as early as 24 months before moving to the UK (so ~4 years before the application); we feel like we want to overwhelm the Home Office reviewer (and whichever lawyer we get) with documents, to be on the safe side. Is this going to help our case, or hinder it? Are there a lot of cases where a well-prepared application, completed and reviewed by a lawyer, gets rejected?

You need 24 months worth of evidence immediately preceding the application. Using a lawyer has no bearing on the outcome of the application and as some unfortunate members on the forum have experienced, lawyers very often get even the most basic applications horribly wrong.

Edit : beaten by secret.simon

[secret.simon]

as some unfortunate members on the forum have experienced, lawyers very often get even the most basic applications horribly wrong

This is so true. Sometimes I am shocked at the appallingly simple mistakes that lawyers make (such as wrong form or wrong evidence) that even I, a legal layperson, can see a mile away.

[kovacsma]

Thanks for the insight to both of you.

I gather then, the married route would be seamless, whereas the EFM route would have a glaring issue at the point where the Tier 5 expires...

As I said, it's all a bit speculative with Brexit looming. If I'm kicked out because I'm an Eea citizen, fine... Wouldn't want to stick around when that bombshell hits the economy. But if I can stay, I'm assuming that some method to bring in family / partners will still remain, since it's been confirmed as a violation of human rights to separate families like that (or something along those lines), even if my right to bring in my partner is just matching the rights of British citizens today... I do maintain a sufficient salary for that route anyways... What a joke though: so many of us making wages and paying taxes, to be booted out

[kovacsma]

Just following up on this, because the route of forcing marriage seems a bit inhumane -- so we want to make sure we understand all possible routes:

I'm having a really hard time understanding the Family Permit for Unmarried Partners (http://www.spammer.com/uk/family-per ... rried.aspx). The timelines that are explained, and then the "Conditions of the Permit", seem so contradictory to me.

If one of the helpful folks on this forum could either explain it, or point me in the direction of a good breakdown of this option (I know how likely it is that this has been explained before), that would be wonderful. I've even asked lawyers for some insight, in introductory meetings, and they don't make any sense...

[Wanderer]

Just following up on this, because the route of forcing marriage seems a bit inhumane -- so we want to make sure we understand all possible routes:

Well if you are unwilling to commit to marriage why should the UK/EU commit to granting a visa?

[secret.simon]

It's not inhumane. They want to make sure that you are really in a stable relationship and not in one for the sake of getting an immigration advantage. That is also why you should not get married to close to the deadline, but a while before.

Essentially, it is not a boyfriend/girlfriend visa, but one for people who have been in a relationship for a while. Just living together means nothing (you could be flatmates). So that relationship needs to be proven and documented.

Family members of an EEA citizen exercising treaty rights in the UK (defined as spouse, children under 21, dependent children over 21 and dependent grand/parents) derive a right to reside with the UK based on their relationship. Such a relationship can typically (not always) be proven with a single document, such as a marriage or birth certificate.

All other extended family members (that includes unmarried partners) have a right to be "facilitated" in their stay, but can be refused on the basis of an assessment of their individual circumstances. As their status only arise after they have been assessed individually, their rights to reside in the UK only kicks in after those circumstances have been assessed and verified by the issual of a Residence Card.

Official guidance notes on Extended Family Members of EEA citizens

A lightly out-of-date, but useful blog about family members and EFMs.

The link that you posted was not accessible, but I am sure that the links above should answer some of your questions.

[kovacsma]

My point of view on forcing marriage is similar to the case that just went through the UK courts, where a couple argued they wanted to have a civil partnership rather than a traditional marriage. We aren't thrilled about the traditional marriage route for a number of reasons. One in particular: we are hesitant on having a timeline by which we must conduct an official ceremony and send exorbitant invoices to the government to evaluate and judge the authenticity of. I didn't mean to make it seem like we are trying to game the system with the marriage route... Apologies. We will have been dating for 4 years and living together for just over 2 years (in single bedroom flats), so this is not at all about some sort of sham.

[Casa]

My point of view on forcing marriage is similar to the case that just went through the UK courts, where a couple argued they wanted to have a civil partnership rather than a traditional marriage. We aren't thrilled about the traditional marriage route for a number of reasons. One in particular: we are hesitant on having a timeline by which we must conduct an official ceremony and send exorbitant invoices to the government to evaluate and judge the authenticity of. I didn't mean to make it seem like we are trying to game the system with the marriage route... Apologies. We will have been dating for 4 years and living together for just over 2 years (in single bedroom flats), so this is not at all about some sort of sham.

To clarify...a civil partnership is one between a couple of the same gender.

[kovacsma]

I recognize that. But perhaps you've heard of the very recent case that went through the UK's higher courts, regarding mixed-sex couples fighting for civil partnership status? Here's just one link: http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/wes ... l-12569040

The motivation for mixed-sex civil partnerships is exactly applicable to our case: we don't want the traditional marriage at this stage. It requires a set of standards to be upheld, including expensive and large weddings, and traditional procedures to be carried out. Why is that relevant? Because that's EXACTLY what the immigration agent will judge in an application for a FM visa. If we were to get married and have an insufficiently extravagant or traditional event -- one that actually fit our budget and not the preference of the person judging our application -- then it'd be labelled as a sham and it'd be all for nothing anyways: some immigration agent would come and pull her out of the home she's been living and working from for 2 years, from the partner she'd been with for 4 years, and puts her on a plane anyways...

[Casa]

There is no requirement for a lavish wedding ceremony as far as the HO are concerned. My husband and I had a simple Registry Office wedding with 5 guests and a celebration at home with no detriment to the issuing of his spouse visa.

[kovacsma]

I genuinely mean no offense to you, and I actually do respect your input. Hopefully though, you can understand my skepticism about how consistently the HO applies that logic. Then, with the impending separation from the relevant EU authorities, they very well could revert to their old way of doing things: as one of the blogs discusses (an article in the blog referenced in a previous post: https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... a-problem/), refusing the EEA-national's partner was an effective way to keep EU citizens out (or get them out of the country).

Anyways... We digress...

Reading one of the resources that was linked to me a few posts above, I have found an interesting point that I had not been aware of before:

Entering with an EEA family Permit
Under regulation 7(3), a person who enters with an EEA family permit issued as an EFM, only has a right to reside in the UK on this basis for six months.
If that person then submits an application for a residence card or registration cert. before the EEA FP expires, you do not need to undertake stages 2 to 4 of the four stage process.

To me, this suggests a different timeline than I was previous thinking of.
Previously, I thought: Apply for unmarried partner visa whilst still in UK, and the visa agent would go through the whole process (Steps 1-4 according to the guidance document linked in a previous post, https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... als_v3.pdf). This whole process likely taking 12 months, wherein my partner has to leave the country after her T5 visa expires.
Now, I gather: She could apply for this Family Permit after the T5 is up, if she returns to Canada. This could be a much faster route, taking as little as a few weeks, if I understand previous posts on this forum? And then when she arrives in the UK, she has the right to work (even for longer than 6 months) as long as she puts in an application for a Residency Card?

I also don't understand this element of the evaluation process:
In assessing an application from an EEA national’s extended family member, the ECO should consider whether... 3. refusing the application would deter the EEA national from exercising his/her free movement rights;.
If my partner were refused the application, and I had to stop exercising my rights in the UK and move away because of it, how does this clause come into effect?

[secret.simon]

I think you are massively overthinking the situation. Let's take a deep breath and reflect.

There is no requirement for a lavish wedding ceremony as far as the HO are concerned. My husband and I had a simple Registry Office wedding with 5 guests and a celebration at home with no detriment to the issuing of his spouse visa.

If we were to get married and have an insufficiently extravagant or traditional event -- one that actually fit our budget and not the preference of the person judging our application -- then it'd be labelled as a sham and it'd be all for nothing anyways: some immigration agent would come and pull her out of the home she's been living and working from for 2 years, from the partner she'd been with for 4 years, and puts her on a plane anyways...

If you think the UK is this bad, perhaps you should reconsider whether you want to settle here at all.

For the purposes of EU law, all that is required is a marriage certificate that would be legally issued where the marriage took place. There are provisions in place for polygamous marriages, but then I am fairly certain that your partnership does not have that element.

As one of the partners is a non-EEA citizen, if you plan to marry in the UK, the Registrar will refer the case to the Home Office, who can extend the period of notification from 28 to 70 days and invite both of you for an interview if they suspect a sham marriage. So, if they suspect a sham marriage, they can refuse permission for a marriage in the UK to start with.

As to the other paragraph that you located,

Entering with an EEA family PermitUnder regulation 7(3), a person who enters with an EEA family permit issued as an EFM, only has a right to reside in the UK on this basis for six months.If that person then submits an application for a residence card or registration cert. before the EEA FP expires, you do not need to undertake stages 2 to 4 of the four stage process.To me, this suggests a different timeline than I was previous thinking of. Previously, I thought: Apply for unmarried partner visa whilst still in UK, and the visa agent would go through the whole process (Steps 1-4 according to the guidance document linked in a previous post, https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... als_v3.pdf). This whole process likely taking 12 months, wherein my partner has to leave the country after her T5 visa expires.Now, I gather: She could apply for this Family Permit after the T5 is up, if she returns to Canada. This could be a much faster route, taking as little as a few weeks, if I understand previous posts on this forum? And then when she arrives in the UK, she has the right to work (even for longer than 6 months) as long as she puts in an application for a Residency Card?

Broadly, an EFM is evaluated once as to the status of the relationship, either at Family Permit stage (if the person is outside the UK) or at Residence Card stage (if the person is applying from inside the UK). The assessment is the same and hence is likely to take the same amount of time, whether your partner is applying for an FP from Canada or an RC from the UK.

The Family Permits that you have seen process really quickly are likely those for direct family members, who have an automatic right to enter the UK with their EEA citizen family member anyway.

If your partner enters the UK on an EFM Family Permit, that means that the assessment has already been done and she will be treated as a direct family member while her Residence Card application is in progress.

But that will not shorten the time spent on the assessment.

[kovacsma]

I think you are massively overthinking the situation.

I tend to do that in much less significant scenarios. Add in the possibility that we may end up separated and at a loss in our careers, and I'm a mess

If you think the UK is this bad, perhaps you should reconsider whether you want to settle here at all.

Well... I could say that about any Leavers that want to cosy up to the US while the US is enacting immigration bans and other policies that go against "British values". No, I came for more specific interests, and I'll stay within the welcoming area I've found, with very careful adventures outside of it

Your insight on the practicalities of the Family Permit and EFM visa have been extraordinarily helpful -- really. The insight you've provided is absolutely not available or even very clear from the guidance documents. Thank you very much!

[secret.simon]

I came for more specific interests, and I'll stay within the welcoming area I've found, with very careful adventures outside of it Your insight on the practicalities of the Family Permit and EFM visa have been extraordinarily helpful -- really. The insight you've provided is absolutely not available or even very clear from the guidance documents. Thank you very much!

You are welcome and indeed, I am flattered that you were not offended by my advice. Most people in your situation are far too prickly and get upset way too easily.

I think you are taking the right approach in planning ahead. Indeed, something that I did throughtout my immigration journey, so I can empathise on that score. Jut beware that the route is extremely fluid, so keep your ears to the ground (I know I am wildly mixing metaphors; you would end up with a wet ear). And keep in mind that I am not a lawyer.

[kovacsma]

Before I call or email UKVI and waste my time and money for this request, I am wondering if someone on here can provide some insight.

We are looking to obtain records of the original documentation we submitted to UKVI for our Tier 5 Youth Mobility Visa applications (submitted from Toronto, processed in New York) back in mid-2016. Importantly, we know it has our address at the time of submission, on the documentation. We need these documents as my partner (on the Tier 5 visa) is now applying for EEA EFM RC, and the documentation would act as a means to prove she resided at the address we're claiming.

Please let me know if you think this is at all possible, and how we would go about getting it.

Thanks

[CR001]

All documents should have been returned when the visa was approved. If there were missing documents, you should have raised the issue at the time.

What documents exactly are you missing?

I have merged this post with your other topic from earlier this year in the EEA/EU sub forum so that any members who want to offer advice, other than the extensive advice already provided, can see the history.

[kovacsma]

Thanks.

I honestly don't recall what was returned at the time - - beyond the necessary letters that we would've needed to enter the country in the first place. Unfortunately, we likely did not move with the part of the package that had our Canadian address on it. Hence, we are hoping to get access to a copy that the Home Office must have available.

[kovacsma]

My thoughts on this are rather simple.

Either one if the following options:
A. We have the right to request a copy of the information that we submitted to the Home Office, and by calling the expensive Home Office line and requesting it, they should return a copy.
B. I don't have any right to request it back.
C. We have to submit some FOI request to get the documents back.
D. None of the above.

[kovacsma]

Back at work compiling this application package. Going all out in describing key points in the relationship, citing invoices / photos / statements from friends and family as evidence that our relationship is true and as substantial as we're describing it. I think someone on this forum previously said that there is such thing as "too much evidence", but I think the evidence we're providing is directly related to our substantial, long-term relationship -- and even the Home Office guidance suggests at least 12 statements from people as supporting evidence, in the event that you have no proof of co-habitation (which we do have... But we also have more than 12 people who are very close to us, and can vouch for all the things the home Office wants to see in an applicant...)

I'm curious about what we need for bank statements to demonstrate a substantial relationship. When we submit the application, we'll have had this joint account for 1 year and 6 months. We could just print all 18 months worth of statements and say, "see, every transaction we do is from this account" and highlight the ones where we pay our landlord (private let). However, that may be excessive at 75+ pages of bank statements alone... On the other hand, maybe the common experience is that the Home Office wants EVERYTHING or else they use the missing info as an excuse to reject the application? What's an acceptable submission?

[kovacsma]

As a follow-up to the previous post, I will summarise the query and add one more short one:

(1) What bank statements should be provided for this application? For 18 months of joint banking, do we provide all 18 months of statements, demonstrating that all of our daily expenses and income is pooled? This would probably be close to 100 pages I would think.

(2) Private letting for the past 18 months, and no bills to our name because it's all included in the rent. Also, our tenancy agreement with the landlord was a generic "fill in the blanks" document that contractually expired months ago; since expiring, we've basically just been renting in good faith with the landlord... Our landlord provided a letter for this residency application stating that we've been living at the flat for as long as we have, that they believe we are an unmarried couple, and provided some background info of how they have got to know us personally.
What proof do we need to give that the landlord's letter has authority? The landlord provided a gas bill for the house, addressed to them; and we can refer to our bank statements showing monthly bank transfers to that person's name. Will that be sufficient? In other words, do we need to do more to prove that the letter is in fact from the landlord?

Many thanks.

[lunallena]

Hello,

1. I would not provide bank statements for every single month... maybe one every three months should be fine. In my case, bank statements from our joint account arrive every three months so that is what we submitted.

2. We also did not have a proper tenancy agreement from the last place we are living so we provided a letter from the landlord as the one you mentioned. As long as the letter has the landlord's name, signature and address it should be fine.

[kovacsma]

A massive thumbs up to your response, lunallena. This is reassuring -- I assume this advice is based on successful personal experience.

[lunallena]

A massive thumbs up to your response, lunallena. This is reassuring -- I assume this advice is based on successful personal experience.

It is indeed. I submitted my application last February and received my RC as unmarried partner 6 months later.

This is what I provided

-Proof of identity of my partner and myself (original, no copies)
-Letter from my partner's employer as well as signature on the EFM form (corresponding section)
- Partner's payslips (last three months)
-Joint bank account statements (covering 1.5 years) and individual bank statements addressed to each of us to the same address (covering 2.5 years)
-Utility bills addressed to both of us (together or separately) to the same address covering all the time we have lived together
-First tenancy agreement with both our names on it
-Second tenancy agreement (we sent landlord's letter instead)
-Pictures together (we just put dates and places on the back with a pen)
-Boarding passes of flights taken together

We sent all original documents and we received them back once our application was processed.

I just have one question... are you only submitting proof of cohabitation for 18 months or am I missing something?