Applied for Permission to Remain with Family FLRM

[tbn3]

I am waiting to hear if my application for permission to remain with family (spouse of 25 years who is British), has been approved. I mailed it and it was received prior to my regular 6 month allowed stay (return flight date), which ended on Feb. 2017. My application asking to remain was received by immigration on the 1st of Jan. this year. I was notified on that date with a reference number for my application. I'm still waiting to hear back. Just passed the 12 week time frame.
Since the date I 'should' have returned to USA if I weren't applying to remain with my wife has passed that I could legally be here from the USA, does that mean I'm an overstay? Site stated that application had to be received prior to the date I would be considered an overstay, which it was. Would have been much sooner but I also had to wait to receive the 1st biometrics that I needed to send in with passport, application and NHS fees.
They have everything and I'm confident (as much as one can be), that my application is in order and includes all required.
Am I in trouble here and could this affect a positive decision on my application?

Thanks all,
Tony

[CR001]

regular 6 month allowed stay

What visa is this?? Did you enter the UK on as a visitor?? If yes, when did you arrive here and who suggested you apply for FLR(M)??

[tbn3]

CR001
Did you see my first reply to you? I came back to this page but didn't see where my post/reply to you had gone thru so I wanted to check and make sure I did indeed post it.

Duh....just in case you didn't see it or....I didn't post it, the answer to your question is that i didn't come to the U.K. on a VISA per se but just had to have return ticket to USA., which I did. Once here my wife & her sister got together and decided my wife wants to live here now so that means me too.
She figured she had spent all the time in the USA with me now I could return the favor... I just hope I don't get deported now!

Thanks again,

Tony
tbn3

[secret.simon]

Did you read the guidance notes on FLR(M) before sending the form? Page 8 clearly states "You must not be in the UK as a visitor, or with leave for 6 months or less (unless you are here as a fiancée or proposed civil partner), or here with temporary admission." Therefore the form will almost certainly be rejected.

[CR001]

Being admitted to the UK as a visitor means that you are NOT permitted to switch into any other visa category. You should have returned to the USA and applied from there for a spouse visa.

Besides which, your passport and NHS fees should have been sent/paid at the time of submitting your application. Biometrics letter is a separate process to this and is nothing 'you have to send'.

Does your spouse meet the financial requirements to sponsor a spouse visa?

In addition to what secret.simon says, you effectively have no leave to remain due to not being able to switch in country from a visitor visa.

[tbn3]

Being admitted to the UK as a visitor means that you are NOT permitted to switch into any other visa category. You should have returned to the USA and applied from there for a spouse visa.

Besides which, your passport and NHS fees should have been sent/paid at the time of submitting your application. Biometrics letter is a separate process to this and is nothing 'you have to send'.


I did pay the NHS fees and of course sent my passport and I also had to send another biometrics card as well. The biometrics ID card was definitely asked for.

Does your spouse meet the financial requirements to sponsor a spouse visa?

Tony Replies
This question was more concerned with rather I could support both of us and how much money I have saved/earned. That wasn't a problem and I sent financial records showing that I meet the amount needed for not only myself but for two people. And that I wouldn't be a burden in U.K. Social Services. I'm not sure exactly everything they asked and why I was "NOT" required to return to USA to apply. There was clearly a form to use to apply for permission to stay from within England. That's about all I'm sure of however.....

Tony

In addition to what secret.simon says, you effectively have no leave to remain due to not being able to switch in country from a visitor visa.

Did you read the guidance notes on FLR(M) before sending the form? Page 8 clearly states "You must not be in the UK as a visitor, or with leave for 6 months or less (unless you are here as a fiancée or proposed civil partner), or here with temporary admission." Therefore the form will almost certainly be rejected.

My Reply to secret.simon Also please see above under your questions where I answered. I'm truly sorry for my 'wanting' format. I will get used to it!

I did read all the guidelines and her sister who actually works as a civil servant read them and explained it bit more throughly....I believe that's why I had to get a biometrics card prior to applying for the permission to remain. It was something like that to best of my recollection. I am "pretty" sure we did adhere to what they asked.
In case, God forbid, after 25 years of marriage, my request is turned down, would I hear sooner or later about that?

Thanks very much..even tho your really have me worried now!

Thank you again.....

Tony

[CR001]

I did pay the NHS fees and of course sent my passport and I also had to send another biometrics card as well.
Does your spouse meet the financial requirements to sponsor a spouse visa?
This question was more concerned with rather I could support both of us and how much money I have saved/earned. That wasn't a problem and I sent financial records showing that I meet the amount needed for not only myself but for two people. And that I wouldn't be a burden in U.K. Social Services. I'm not sure exactly everything they asked and why I was "NOT" required to return to USA to apply. There was clearly a form to use to apply for permission to stay from within England. That's about all I'm sure of however.....

What 'biometric card' did you apply for? The process you have followed does not make sense. You don't qualify for a biometric card if you are a visitor. YOU are not the one that has to meet the financial requirements, your British spouse has to meet them, unless either of you have £62,500 in savings held for a minimum of 6 months. Yes there is a form, but you must have a qualifying visa to use that particular form. You do not appear to have a qualifying visa, i.e. visitor.

I did read all the guidelines and her sister who actually works as a civil servant read them and explained it bit more throughly....I believe that's why I had to get a biometrics card prior to applying for the permission to remain. It was something like that to best of my recollection. I am "pretty" sure we did adhere to what they asked.

Dealing with the Home Office, being 'pretty sure' is not good enough. You need to be 200% sure and tick every single box and then some, and jump through every single hoop HO wants you to. Being a 'civil servant' does not make someone an expert on immigration rules.[/color]
In case, God forbid, after 25 years of marriage, my request is turned down, would I hear sooner or later about that?

[tbn3]

I did pay the NHS fees and of course sent my passport and I also had to send another biometrics card as well.
Does your spouse meet the financial requirements to sponsor a spouse visa?
This question was more concerned with rather I could support both of us and how much money I have saved/earned. That wasn't a problem and I sent financial records showing that I meet the amount needed for not only myself but for two people. And that I wouldn't be a burden in U.K. Social Services. I'm not sure exactly everything they asked and why I was "NOT" required to return to USA to apply. There was clearly a form to use to apply for permission to stay from within England. That's about all I'm sure of however.....

What 'biometric card' did you apply for? The process you have followed does not make sense. You don't qualify for a biometric card if you are a visitor.
Tony Replies:
I had to apply for a biometrics card and applied for the one immigration told me to. Perhaps that was to clarify the "visitor" issue. The 1st card I applied for would expire in 6 months. I then had to apply for another one "before the 1st one expired," and that one I had to send with my application along with my Passport, financial papers etc.

YOU are not the one that has to meet the financial requirements, your British spouse has to meet them, unless either of you have £62,500 in savings held for a minimum of 6 months.
Tony Replies;

Yes, we did meet the savings requirement for the 2 of us.


Yes there is a form, but you must have a qualifying visa to use that particular form. You do not appear to have a qualifying visa, i.e. visitor.

Tony Replies;
Wow, I hope that the first form I filled out where they requested the "First biometrics" was to address this issue. Like you, if not, why would I have had to get one at all as a visitor.

I did read all the guidelines and her sister who actually works as a civil servant read them and explained it bit more throughly....I believe that's why I had to get a biometrics card prior to applying for the permission to remain. It was something like that to best of my recollection. I am "pretty" sure we did adhere to what they asked.

Dealing with the Home Office, being 'pretty sure' is not good enough. You need to be 200% sure and tick every single box and then some, and jump through every single hoop HO wants you to. Being a 'civil servant' does not make someone an expert on immigration rules.[/color]

Tony Replies;
I totally understand. Being even 200% may not be good enough. And no we aren't experts in immigration but most people who apply aren't. I rear, re-read, and read again everything I needed to do prior to applying from 'within' the U.K. I can only hope it was enough. Some of the questions like "Have you ever met your wife?" did throw me for a loop. But, coming from a law enforcement career I fo understand why that's pertinent...
I suppose I'll know one way or the other. It's was12 weeks on Wednesday. Hopefully if it's refused there will be some type of appeal so that people who've been married for 25+ years with family, will not have to be separated!

Thank you so much for your help. It's very much appreciated.

Tony







In case, God forbid, after 25 years of marriage, my request is turned down, would I hear sooner or later about that?

[secret.simon]

I'm truly sorry for my 'wanting' format.

Not sure what is meant by that.

I concur with CR001 that currently you are already an overstayer, as you have stayed back in the UK past the six months that are allowed to a visitor. A visitor can not switch to any long term residence/settlement visa. Therefore the Section 3C protection of having a pending application with the Home Office likely won't apply.

We are not quite as free with deportations as the US. Due to European human rights laws, the Home Office would write to you to suggest that you leave on your own and only if that does not happen, would it look at initiating the necessary legal processes to deport you. Unlike the US, where it has been interpreted that only US citizens are protected by the Constitution, here all have the protection of the law, even those here illegally. On the other hand, it has been remarked that the UK immigration system is more complex than the US system, primarily because of the interplay between domestic UK law, EU law and European ECHR human rights law (which is unrelated to the EU).

However, this illegal stay will be an hindrance in any future immigration application that you make, even ones that you make properly. There is practically no chance of a UK visit visa in the future for you. And it will also count against any future citizenship application that you may make in the future.

her sister who actually works as a civil servant

Not at all sure why this is relevant. As CR001 said, being a civil servant does not mean any greater knowledge of immigration laws. A person working for the MoJ (Ministry of Justice) or DEFRA (Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) would likely not know of the intricacies of immigration law. Even people working in the Home Office (the department that administers immigration law) who work with, say the police or security forces, would not know of the intricacies of immigration law.

there will be some type of appeal

I doubt it. If there is any appeal (and there is a very small chance of it), it will be an out-of-country appeal.

What I suggest is that you plan with your wife on a return to the US, either with her or on your own, and apply on a VAF4 (pretty much the same as an FLR(M), but from outside the UK) from the US. Once you get that, you can then enter the UK as the spouse of a British citizen and go through the FLR(M) process in two and a half years.

[tbn3]

All i meant by 'wanting format' was replying to posts right under questions but not sure of which format to use. As far as my wife's sister working for the gov't, I was merely stating that I did get some help trying to fill out the numerous pages of the application, and she was more informed on how to answer some of the questions and providing needed documents. If we were all experts in immigration there would be little need for a forum to ask for help. If we have to move back to the USA it won't hurt my feelings, I was trying to make my wife happy by moving to England so she could be near her sister and enjoy her retirement.

My wife came over in Jan of 2016 and set up residence again. She wanted to move home and said she would go ahead and see what the area was like. She had been in the States for over 25 yrs and not that familiar with England since then and wanted to look around. She did that because I was willing to move to Belgium where I've lived before and if push came to shove perhaps she could come to Belgium rather than me to England...I actually wanted to move to Belgium in August when I was free from employment, so her coming to England wasn't out of the question as I might find the area she chose one I would consider living. She came back to Florida to persuade me to come check with her in August to see if I would move here as well. When I came in August I was not at all sure I would wish to remain. However, she wants to be here so after to speaking to many others, trying to find best advice I could, I was told to apply to; Remain in the U.K. With Family of a Settled Person. I suppose that's a 'family of a settled person visa.' It states that you need to apply for that visa under the conditions: If you're already in the U.K. And wish to remain with your family/spouse that is already settled in the U.K. and are from outside the EU; Either extend your family of a settled person visa or switch to a visa of a family of a settled person. I hope I have the information right here...
Perhaps that's why I had to apply first for the biometrics, then apply for the visa.
I hope I've done it right and I'm not forced to have an unhappy wife living in the USA or worse for her, Belgium.
Whatever happens I've been in law Enforcement for my career and I'm certainly not one to knowingly break any laws!

I do thank you for your help. I will certainly try to find out what's happening with my application. It's only a day after 12 weeks today so maybe I worry too much. Hopefully.

Again thank you for your time and advice. It is most appreciated.

Tony

[secret.simon]

You are welcome.

Going to Belgium would be an excellent and much faster option, while the UK is still in the EU. Bizarrely, as the spouse of an EEA citizen from another member state, you will get the immediate right to reside in any non-UK EEA member-state. And that is a right, not a grant that you have to apply for. If you still have your passport (or once you get it after any refusal), moving to a non-UK EEA member-state, such as Belgium, would be the best option.

The same is true of the UK. If your wife were a non-UK EEA citizen, you would have had an automatic right to reside in the UK and not needed to make any application. Think of how the US would have reacted if all Mexicans and all their non-Mexican relatives had the right to move to the US under NAFTA.

[Casa]

It may take some time to hear from the HO. Without wanting to be overly pessimistic, I know personally of a S.A citizen with a British husband married for a similar length of time as yourself. She entered on a visitor visa and submitted a FLR(M) application with the intention of remaining here. The application was refused and the HO retained her passport until she left the UK. This was despite claiming compassionate reasons to help her husband look after his very elderly parents (one who is blind).

She re-applied from her home country and has now returned on a spouse settlement visa. Her husband was however required to meet the minimum income level of £18,600 p,a (UK employment) by submitting the mandatory 6 months of payslips & the corresponding bank statements.

[tbn3]

Thanks again. My wife just got home and is rightly having a nervous breakdown.
She said we applied in the Permission to stay with a "Settled" person because when we started to send in the other form we found out the forms have changed. She is/was here as Settled person before my applying. If she had to meet financial responsibilities she couldn't. I've been the bread winner in the family.
So, will just have to wait and see what happens.

May I ask if in the worse case scenario, we go to Belgium. I have a place to live there. Since technically the U.K. Is still member could we go that route? Immigration also had her passport, but they sent hers back within 2 weeks of mailing application. But I would have to get my documents if indeed the form I filled out isn't the correct one.
The one we filled out does stipulate that I "have to be in U.K." in order to use it. And it seems that I do meet the other criteria, i.e. Applying prior to being here for 6 months etc.


Again I'm beholding to you for taking the time with my concerns!

Tony

[Casa]

True that you have to be in UK in order to apply for FLR(M), but while in the UK as a visitor you don't qualify to switch to a spouse visa under the Immigration Rules.

[Casa]

Did you read the guidance notes on FLR(M) before sending the form? Page 8 clearly states "You must not be in the UK as a visitor, or with leave for 6 months or less (unless you are here as a fiancée or proposed civil partner), or here with temporary admission." Therefore the form will almost certainly be rejected.

This post from secret.simon highlights the situation.

[CR001]

I am curious about this Biometric card you said you applied for. What exactly did it say was your immigration status when you received the card?? For example, it would usually state which category of visa you are on, ie. Tier 2 General, Spouse Settlement Visa or Tier 4 Student Visa.

What form did you complete to apply for the biometric card?

[vinny]

If you made a valid application prior to your six months was up, then you would be covered under Section 3C after your six months was up, prior to the decision. Completion of biometrics is necessary for an application to be valid.

Unfortunately, the eventual decision is likely to be a refusal.

The applicant must not be in the UK-

(a) as a visitor; or
(b) with valid leave granted for a period of 6 months or less, unless that leave is as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner, or was granted pending the outcome of family court or divorce proceedings

[vinny]

She is/was here as Settled person before my applying. If she had to meet financial responsibilities she couldn't. I've been the bread winner in the family.

See also A case of tough love.

[tbn3]

The below is the Application I used. Filled out all pages. I believe this is the correct form, at least I hope so. Thanks again for all your help.

Tony




Application for Indefinite Leave to Remain
in the UK as the Partner of a Person Present and Settled in the UK and a Biometric Immigration
Document



In accordance with paragraph 34 of the Immigration Rules, this form is a specifed form for the purpose of the Immigration Rules as of 24 November 2016 and must be used for all applications made on or after that date for the purposes stated on this page and listed in section 4.




SECTION 4 - WHICH CATEGORY?
Please tick a box to show us the category in which you are applying for indefinite leave to remain and to confirm that you are also applying for a biometric immigration document.
Spouse of a person present and settled in the UK. x This is the one I ticked
Civil partner of a person present and settled in the UK
Unmarried partner of a person present and settled in the UK
Same-sex partner of a person present and settled in the UK

[Casa]

Oh no! SET(M) is an application for Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) for someone who has completed 5 years of residence (2.5 + 2.5) in the UK as the spouse of a settled person.

[CR001]

I am curious about this Biometric card you said you applied for. What exactly did it say was your immigration status when you received the card?? For example, it would usually state which category of visa you are on, ie. Tier 2 General, Spouse Settlement Visa or Tier 4 Student Visa.

What form did you complete to apply for the biometric card?

I am still waiting for you to respond to my post above. This is actually really important as visitors don't qualify for BRP cards.

In addition to Casa's comment, you very clearly do not qualify for ILR and have paid for and applied for a completely wrong category and you will likely get a refusal and lose your fee.

If you used a solicitor, pity you paid for such appalling advice.