ILR Job Creation Calculations

[niomi]

I was just about to submit my application this week when my solicitor informed me I hadn't generated employment in the correct way. It'd be great if I could get some input here.

I've created over 4000 hours of employment through a mix of two 30/hour per week employees and two 15/hour week employees. I'm under the transitional rules.

The problem seems to be that these employees did not always work 130 hours or 70 hours a month (it often comes in under that).

So even though I've created far greater than 2 years employment, my solicitor says they no longer calculate employment by hours generated, which means every month that comes in below 130 will be considered part time rather than full time. Even if it was something like 128 hours that month!

I'm REALLY frustrated because when we did my extension application I did it exactly this way and everything went fine, only now is he telling me they calculate it differently.

What does everyone think here. Am I able to claim I've created 2 full time jobs or will they consider this under that? Thank you.

[marcnath]

There has never been a specification of total hours. The immigration rules have been very clear from a long time that you need 24 months (or 104 weeks) of full time equivalent. FT being defined as 30hrs/week.
So it is not the monthly hours but the weekly hours that you should look at.
If you got through in your extension it was probably because you met the condition anyway and not because your total hours was some figure.
For now, list the weeks and the hours worked on each week. Take a maximum of 30 hrs each week. And if you get to 104 x 30 (3120), you are ok.
Given you have over 4000 hrs you probably meet it

[niomi]

For now, list the weeks and the hours worked on each week. Take a maximum of 30 hrs each week. And if you get to 104 x 30 (3120), you are ok.
Given you have over 4000 hrs you probably meet it

Thank you very much for your reply. My payslips are by the month, it is not split into weeks. Would I do the same thing in terms of months (130 hours per month per job). So for example, what would this scenario count as?

Employee 1: 127.5
Employee 2: 84
Employe 3: 87
TOTAL = 298.5 hours or 2 full time jobs that month?

My solicitor is saying that if they don't actually surpass 130 hours for Employee 1, it only counts as part time, and Employees 2 and 3 are only part time because they are between 70-129 hours. So according to my solicitor the case above only counts as 1.5 jobs rather than 2.

[bizman]

For now, list the weeks and the hours worked on each week. Take a maximum of 30 hrs each week. And if you get to 104 x 30 (3120), you are ok.
Given you have over 4000 hrs you probably meet it

Thank you very much for your reply. My payslips are by the month, it is not split into weeks. Would I do the same thing in terms of months (130 hours per month per job). So for example, what would this scenario count as?

Employee 1: 127.5
Employee 2: 84
Employe 3: 87
TOTAL = 298.5 hours or 2 full time jobs that month?

My solicitor is saying that if they don't actually surpass 130 hours for Employee 1, it only counts as part time, and Employees 2 and 3 are only part time because they are between 70-129 hours. So according to my solicitor the case above only counts as 1.5 jobs rather than 2.

Hello
You have to work strictly with what the immigration rule says not what your solicitor says. We have discovered over time that most solicitors are liabilities rather than assets. From what you have stated above it looks like you are ok especially since you came in during the transitional period.

[niomi]

For now, list the weeks and the hours worked on each week. Take a maximum of 30 hrs each week. And if you get to 104 x 30 (3120), you are ok.
Given you have over 4000 hrs you probably meet it

Thank you very much for your reply. My payslips are by the month, it is not split into weeks. Would I do the same thing in terms of months (130 hours per month per job). So for example, what would this scenario count as?

Employee 1: 127.5
Employee 2: 84
Employe 3: 87
TOTAL = 298.5 hours or 2 full time jobs that month?

My solicitor is saying that if they don't actually surpass 130 hours for Employee 1, it only counts as part time, and Employees 2 and 3 are only part time because they are between 70-129 hours. So according to my solicitor the case above only counts as 1.5 jobs rather than 2.

Hello
You have to work strictly with what the immigration rule says not what your solicitor says. We have discovered over time that most solicitors are liabilities rather than assets. From what you have stated above it looks like you are ok especially since you came in during the transitional period.

Thank you bizman. Calculating it the way marcnarth suggested it seems I've created 26 months of jobs. I'm using this as the key:

Hours of jobs per month # jobs created
Total between 0-70 0
Total between 71-129 0.5
Total between130-199 1
Total between200-259 1.5
Total between260-329 2
Total 330+ 2.5

Would you agree with this?

[bizman]

I cant understand this but the previous one you did looks ok.

[marcnath]

For now, list the weeks and the hours worked on each week. Take a maximum of 30 hrs each week. And if you get to 104 x 30 (3120), you are ok.
Given you have over 4000 hrs you probably meet it

Thank you very much for your reply. My payslips are by the month, it is not split into weeks. Would I do the same thing in terms of months (130 hours per month per job). So for example, what would this scenario count as?

Employee 1: 127.5
Employee 2: 84
Employe 3: 87
TOTAL = 298.5 hours or 2 full time jobs that month?

My solicitor is saying that if they don't actually surpass 130 hours for Employee 1, it only counts as part time, and Employees 2 and 3 are only part time because they are between 70-129 hours. So according to my solicitor the case above only counts as 1.5 jobs rather than 2.

Irrespective of how your payslip is, how do you determine the hours ? Are all your employees on minimum wage ?

[niomi]

Irrespective of how your payslip is, how do you determine the hours ? Are all your employees on minimum wage ?

They're all paid hourly and are above minimum wage (£9-12).

[marcnath]

Calculating it the way marcnarth suggested it seems I've created 26 months of jobs. I'm using this as the key:

Hours of jobs per month # jobs created
Total between 0-70 0
Total between 71-129 0.5
Total between130-199 1
Total between200-259 1.5
Total between260-329 2
Total 330+ 2.5

Would you agree with this?

Unfortunately this is not correct. As mentioned, you cannot total hours across jobs.
For example 330+ is definitely not one employee. So, how many jobs it is is going to be dependant on how many employees make it up.
For an extreme, if it just one employee, then you have only 1 job.
But, if it is 3 employees, it can be 3 PT/1.5 FT (if each contributed 110 hrs) or 2.5 if two employees was at 130 each and the last one at 70 hrs.

This is what I did. I created a table in excel as follows:

26 EMP1 EMP2 EMP3 EMP4 EMP5 EMP6
44.50 0 0 0 0 0 8
Jul-12
Aug-12
Sep-12 1
Oct-12 1
Nov-12 1
Dec-12 1 1
Jan-13 1 1
Feb-13 1 1
Mar-13 1 1
Apr-13 1 1
May-13 1 1
Jun-13 1 1
Jul-13 1 1
Aug-13 1 1
Sep-13 1 1
Oct-13 1 1
Nov-13 1 1
Dec-13 1
Jan-14 1
Feb-14 0.5
Mar-14 0.5
Apr-14 0.5
May-14 0.5
Jun-14 0.5 1
Jul-14 1

If an employee worked more than 130 hrs, then it is one. Less than 130 hrs/month then it is 0.5. Then you can total everything and check it is ends up to 24. In my case, it ended up at 44.5, but I submitted evidence only for 26.

Hope that helps.

[bizman]

Why dont you present just the 13 months of emlpoyment of two settled workers as you have indicated here

[niomi]

Unfortunately this is not correct. As mentioned, you cannot total hours across jobs.
For example 330+ is definitely not one employee. So, how many jobs it is is going to be dependant on how many employees make it up.
For an extreme, if it just one employee, then you have only 1 job.
But, if it is 3 employees, it can be 3 PT/1.5 FT (if each contributed 110 hrs) or 2.5 if two employees was at 130 each and the last one at 70 hrs.

Thanks for the reply. I wish this wasn't so laboured!

The problem is that sometimes my employees didn't work 130 hours in a month, it was more like 120. I had 3-4 employees (never more than 3 at a time).

So for me one month might look like:

Employee 1 121
Employee 2 56
Employee 3 34
= 211 hours = 1.5 jobs?

According to my solicitor this month would count as 0.5 because only one of them reaches above 70....
What do you think?

If an employee works less than 70 hours, can it still be considered 0.5 or would it go to 0?

[niomi]

Why dont you present just the 13 months of emlpoyment of two settled workers as you have indicated here

It doesn't seem to work that way because my employees worked less than 130 hours a month a lot. This means that with the extra part time person it adds up to the correct amount but without them it doesn't. So that's where I'm stuck. I'm trying to figure out if we can add up hours to create jobs or not.

It's really frustrating because I've definitely created the employment they need but a logistical thing like this makes it look like it's less..

[zimba]

Forget the monthly hours worked. A full time job is legally a job that is min 30 hours a week. All your employees MUST have worked 30 or more hours per WEEK to be considered full time. Hours worked per month are not relevant.

[niomi]

Forget the monthly hours worked. A full time job is legally a job that is min 30 hours a week. All your employees MUST have worked 30 or more hours per WEEK to be considered full time. Hours worked per month are not relevant.

Hi Zimba, I understand what you're saying but there's no way for them to prove it by week. My employee payslips show the hours worked in a month, not week.

I've actually just looked more closely at the guidance and it says this:

The hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job, as long as the 2 part-time jobs exist for 12 months. We consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month. Each job will be assessed separately unless you indicate below that you wish to combine one job with another job

According to this I'm using the wrong number, it should be 120 hours = full time. Not 130!!

I've just redone the calculations and if that's the case I've created 26 months using the method that my solicitor suggested, and 29 with the one bizman suggested.

So confused.

[marcnath]

Don’t depend on the guidance of 120 hrs/month. The immigration rules only specify 30 hrs/week. And there have been two rejections in this forum with 120 hours/month. They have gone for AR based on the guidance but have not updated their results.
You need to declare to HMRC whether an employee works 30 hrs/week or less. I think it shows up as code D in the FPS - or your accountant would know.
There is no requirement for the payslips to have the hours worked.
CW takes the monthly salary in the FPS and divides it by the hourly rate that you enter in the application form job table. If that results in a number greater than 130 then it is full time.
There is no minimum hours/week or month. You can combine 4 employees, each 34 hours to make up one FT.
You are expected to tell the CW which jobs to combine in the application form.
Also it is not employees, it is jobs.
With 4000 hours you should be able to get to the requirement but unless you put it down then you won’t know.

[Yellow rose]

I pay my employees monthly .I think the correct hours per month should use 30 / week x 52 weeks ÷ 12 = 130/momth.

[zimba]

Forget the monthly hours worked. A full time job is legally a job that is min 30 hours a week. All your employees MUST have worked 30 or more hours per WEEK to be considered full time. Hours worked per month are not relevant.

Hi Zimba, I understand what you're saying but there's no way for them to prove it by week. My employee payslips show the hours worked in a month, not week.

I've actually just looked more closely at the guidance and it says this:

The hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job, as long as the 2 part-time jobs exist for 12 months. We consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month. Each job will be assessed separately unless you indicate below that you wish to combine one job with another job

According to this I'm using the wrong number, it should be 120 hours = full time. Not 130!!

I've just redone the calculations and if that's the case I've created 26 months using the method that my solicitor suggested, and 29 with the one bizman suggested.

So confused.

You do NOT have to prove anything. Just calculate the number of weeks worked, supply the payslips for that period and you should be fine

[niomi]

You do NOT have to prove anything. Just calculate the number of weeks worked, supply the payslips for that period and you should be fine

What counts as 'weeks worked'? If I consistently had 3-4 people doing 28 hours a week do they then only count as part time? Or can they all be added up together to make full time jobs?

[zimba]

Yes. They will count as part time.
You can add them to get to 30 hours but the total hours more than 30 per week will be ignored

[entruk]

Well in my opinion the post apr-2014 candidate need to generate the hours of employment in any combination with no employee exceed the limit of 30 hours. So even if you hire 3120 employee for one hour you are ok with the requirement.
Thanks

[marcnath]

Well in my opinion the post apr-2014 candidate need to generate the hours of employment in any combination with no employee exceed the limit of 30 hours. So even if you hire 3120 employee for one hour you are ok with the requirement.
Thanks

Did you mean to say pre April-2014. Your statement is far from reality for post April-2014.

[entruk]

Well in my opinion the post apr-2014 candidate need to generate the hours of employment in any combination with no employee exceed the limit of 30 hours. So even if you hire 3120 employee for one hour you are ok with the requirement.
Thanks

Did you mean to say pre April-2014. Your statement is far from reality for post April-2014.

Thanks Marcnath. Sorry guys yes I meant pre/before apr-2014. Marcnath is this statement valid now? Or is it not the case even for pre apr-2014 candidate?
Thanks

[niomi]

My solicitor has advised me to wait 2 more weeks to generate 1 more month's employment and then go ahead on the basis of the 120 rule in the guidance, stating I risk rejection but if it's in the guidance than they can't not accept us after arguing for it.........

I really do not want to wait more months to apply, so I am going to risk it and then go to AR if it doesn't work. My visa does not expire until October so I have time to make a fresh application if this fails.

I have had so much trouble counting up the hours and it all seems a bit ridiculous to be honest that I've generated 4000+ hours of employment and continued to grow my business these past 5 years but still can't demonstrate employment in the way 'they' want. It really feels like the rules keep changing.

Very frustrated all around.

[CR001]

@ Celina - can you please desist from tagging your questions onto other members topics. You will not be asked again.

[marcnath]

My solicitor has advised me to wait 2 more weeks to generate 1 more month's employment and then go ahead on the basis of the 120 rule in the guidance, stating I risk rejection but if it's in the guidance than they can't not accept us after arguing for it.........

I really do not want to wait more months to apply, so I am going to risk it and then go to AR if it doesn't work. My visa does not expire until October so I have time to make a fresh application if this fails.

I have had so much trouble counting up the hours and it all seems a bit ridiculous to be honest that I've generated 4000+ hours of employment and continued to grow my business these past 5 years but still can't demonstrate employment in the way 'they' want. It really feels like the rules keep changing.

Very frustrated all around.

Since you have the time, it is worth going with the 120 hrs / month. Make it clear in the cover letter that you are using 120 hrs/month as FT job based on the guidance (quote relevant section/page).
I think it will most probably get through - I'll not be surprised if HO updates the guidance soon to correct this.