Living in UK - Are we making the right choice?

[FXR_1340]

My American wife and I (UK Citizen from birth and all the way back to The Doomsday Book) are in the throes of awaiting for a Spouse Visa. The cost was around 2, 300GBP (plus all the hidden costs)

Assuming this visa is issued and an annual increase in fees of 20% per year, we calculate the final cost (Spouse Visa + FLR(M) + ILR) will be in the region of 11,000 GBP. Surely I must have miscalculated?

This being the case, we are having serious doubts about the thought of staying in UK. Maybe USA, Spain or, as my wife is Panamanian by birth, Panama is a more attractive option.

Its a sad day when I begin to wonder if my country of birth is the best place to be.

[secret.simon]

(UK Citizen from birth and all the way back to The Doomsday Book)

Two points to note on that.
a) Most people born in the UK do not seem to know what the Domesday Book is, so it is impressive that you do.
b) You tracked your ancestry all the way to the Domesday Book!!! That must have taken some doing.

As to the central question of whether you are doing the right thing, it really is a question for your spouse to be and you to answer. You will essentially have to grapple with the questions that every immigrant family has to deal with.

Do you plan to raise a family together and if so, what kind of environment do you want to raise the child in? Are you OK with the child not being raised in the same environment as you and consequently having different values and morals?

Would you be able to adapt to different cultures and mores? Part of the whole EU concept is that one exposes themselves to different cultures across Europe. And yet, as recent elections and referendums have shown, people are not crazy about changing their cultures. Will that work for you?

Then, of course you have looked at the financial side of the equation. Have you compared the costs and length of processes to the US and Spanish immigration systems? The US is trying to make family immigration harder. Spain may be a better option as it has special provisions for people from IberoAmerican countries (you mentioned that your spouse is Panamanian). But the language and culture are different. You can of course move to Spain before March 2019 as a UK citizen on your own steam and your Panamanian spouse could find out how to claim Spanish citizenship under those special provisions.

So, simply put, there is no one answer to your question. But it is worth remembering that the question is way more involved that merely being a financial equation. There are social, cultural, moral/value-based aspects of the question to consider. It is an intensely personal question that you may wish to reflect on more fully, both personally and with your spouse, before taking a decision. And that decision is yours and your spouse to take, nobody else's.

[FXR_1340]

(UK Citizen from birth and all the way back to The Doomsday Book)

Two points to note on that.
a) Most people born in the UK do not seem to know what the Domesday Book is, so it is impressive that you do.
b) You tracked your ancestry all the way to the Domesday Book!!! That must have taken some doing.

As to the central question of whether you are doing the right thing, it really is a question for your spouse to be and you to answer. You will essentially have to grapple with the questions that every immigrant family has to deal with.

Do you plan to raise a family together and if so, what kind of environment do you want to raise the child in? Are you OK with the child not being raised in the same environment as you and consequently having different values and morals?

Would you be able to adapt to different cultures and mores? Part of the whole EU concept is that one exposes themselves to different cultures across Europe. And yet, as recent elections and referendums have shown, people are not crazy about changing their cultures. Will that work for you?

Then, of course you have looked at the financial side of the equation. Have you compared the costs and length of processes to the US and Spanish immigration systems? The US is trying to make family immigration harder. Spain may be a better option as it has special provisions for people from IberoAmerican countries (you mentioned that your spouse is Panamanian). But the language and culture are different. You can of course move to Spain before March 2019 as a UK citizen on your own steam and your Panamanian spouse could find out how to claim Spanish citizenship under those special provisions.

So, simply put, there is no one answer to your question. But it is worth remembering that the question is way more involved that merely being a financial equation. There are social, cultural, moral/value-based aspects of the question to consider. It is an intensely personal question that you may wish to reflect on more fully, both personally and with your spouse, before taking a decision. And that decision is yours and your spouse to take, nobody else's.

Thank you for responding and for raising some interesting points.

Regarding the Doomsday Book, I have a very unusual surname which makes things easier to trace.

Anyway, back to the point.

I have to say the secondary reason for my post was to hope that someone would come along and tell me my financial calculation was incorrect. It appears not.

The primary reason for my post was, at least in part, to blow off some steam. There surely is something fundementally wrong with a country/system which is content to take such excessive financial advantage of its citizens. The thread on this board concerning the fee increases in April 2017 and the Guardian investigation is testament to the robbery of citizens.

My wife and I are much closer to retirement age than the age to raise a family. You are correct about the cultural and social differences between countries. This is something which is a huge consideration. Also, it is welcomed that you have an awareness of the Spanish Civil Code (Article 23?) and the Iberoamerican situation.

So many things to consider.

Thanks again for the points you raised and the opportunity for discussion.

[secret.simon]

have to say the secondary reason for my post was to hope that someone would come along and tell me my financial calculation was incorrect. It appears not.

Not sure if you would be flattered, but you are likely very accurate in your assessment of the total final cost of the spousal visa. Indeed, I commend and compliment you on having had the foresight and the ability to have thoughts things through. I have seen only far too often on these forums that people make decisions for emotional reasons and have not factored in the cultural and social questions that I had highlighted or the financial cost that you have. For instance, a non-British couple having children born abroad would have considerably higher costs (additional visas and ILR required) that a non-British couple with the children born in the UK. And yet, some people would prefer their children born abroad (generally in their country of origin) and then are shocked much later on at the additional costs involved, which arose as a result of their decision.

The primary reason for my post was, at least in part, to blow off some steam.

I surmised as much, given the vagueness of the question. I was merely providing a wider context to the question. But while the steam has been vented and the question's purpose has been served, I would still like to respond to one specific point made by you.

There surely is something fundementally wrong with a country/system which is content to take such excessive financial advantage of its citizens.

The way the current government sees it is that the current system does precisely the opposite. The system is designed to take the pressure off the common citizen and put the cost of the immigration system solely (or as far as possible) on the immigrants. Indeed, "user pays" has been the general approach of the current government not only to immigration, but also housing, education and transport, at least.

Here is a longer thread on broadly the same topic.

That debate (user pays or taxpayer pays) is a general issue that is debated in countries around the world and not specific to the UK.

Also, it is welcomed that you have an awareness of the Spanish Civil Code (Article 23?) and the Iberoamerican situation.

Flattered as I am by your compliment, I am afraid I do not deserve it. I am only aware of the particular provision in general terms and as general knowledge. I would not be able to guide you on its application or in any specific details.

[FXR_1340]

have to say the secondary reason for my post was to hope that someone would come along and tell me my financial calculation was incorrect. It appears not.

Not sure if you would be flattered, but you are likely very accurate in your assessment of the total final cost of the spousal visa. Indeed, I commend and compliment you on having had the foresight and the ability to have thoughts things through. I have seen only far too often on these forums that people make decisions for emotional reasons and have not factored in the cultural and social questions that I had highlighted or the financial cost that you have. For instance, a non-British couple having children born abroad would have considerably higher costs (additional visas and ILR required) that a non-British couple with the children born in the UK. And yet, some people would prefer their children born abroad (generally in their country of origin) and then are shocked much later on at the additional costs involved, which arose as a result of their decision.

The primary reason for my post was, at least in part, to blow off some steam.

I surmised as much, given the vagueness of the question. I was merely providing a wider context to the question. But while the steam has been vented and the question's purpose has been served, I would still like to respond to one specific point made by you.

There surely is something fundementally wrong with a country/system which is content to take such excessive financial advantage of its citizens.

The way the current government sees it is that the current system does precisely the opposite. The system is designed to take the pressure off the common citizen and put the cost of the immigration system solely (or as far as possible) on the immigrants. Indeed, "user pays" has been the general approach of the current government not only to immigration, but also housing, education and transport, at least.

Here is a longer thread on broadly the same topic.

That debate (user pays or taxpayer pays) is a general issue that is debated in countries around the world and not specific to the UK.

Also, it is welcomed that you have an awareness of the Spanish Civil Code (Article 23?) and the Iberoamerican situation.

Flattered as I am by your compliment, I am afraid I do not deserve it. I am only aware of the particular provision in general terms and as general knowledge. I would not be able to guide you on its application or in any specific details.

Thanks for the link to the discussion. Interesting.

The "user pays/tax payer pays" is a fair point and it may not be unreasonable for the user to pay. However, for me, the issue is the excessive costs involved. That coupled with the almost nonexistence of official help when completing forms not to mention the often poor and unclear structure of the online forms themselves. For example, the "Guidance Notes" available for the completion of the online Spouse Visa are of little help as they have little resemblence to the online form. I suspect if the form is completed in hardcopy (lucky applicants from North Korea) these notes may make much more sense. Furthermore I find it ironic when the question on the online form asks about the applicants command of the English language, this question is not even in a proper sentence. If it wasnt so serious (and costly) it would be funny! All concerned would be better served if more concentration was given to the service/system than the money generated. We could be forgiven for thinking it was purely a money-making exercise........surely not. Whilst I have no sympathy for those abusing the system, the overstayers, illegals and the like, those who are trying to do the right thing in the right way I have huge sympathy for. They are often being abused and there is little they can do to extricate themselves from that position. I look at my/our situation in comparison and at least we have options.

Anyway, it is what it is.

Thanks again for your replies and further food for thought.