Permission to live and work for EU national and Non-EU spouse

[rociosantana87]

Hello All,

I know this has beed a recurrent issue in many posts, but I didn't quite find the answer to my question yet.

My husband holds an Italian passport, we are both Argentineans and reside in Argentina still. We are planning on moving to Ireland (because UK seemed too difficult) next year.
I understand so far for what I've read that I (non-EU spouse) can get in Ireland no problem with a tourist stamp for 3 months, and once in Ireland, apply for family permission to stay. My question is when, and what do I need to have, to be able to open a bank account and work? My husband being European does not need anything special to start working, but I'm unsure as to what I can expect for myself?
Unlike UK with the Tier 1 stamp at the airport, Ireland has no special stamp that will allow me to work from day 1?

I appreciate all comments and help, Thanks in advance!!

Regards,
Rocio

[max307]

My question is when, and what do I need to have, to be able to open a bank account and work?

In order to work you will need a Stamp 4EUFAM on your passport, an Irish Residence Permit (IRP) card and a PSS number. In order to open a bank account you just need you original passport and a utility bill (gas, electricity, phone, etc.) with your name on it (as it appears on your passport), double check with the bank beforehand anyways because their requirements can change.

The Stamp 4EUFAM and Irish Residence Permit (IRP) card will be issued by INIS once your application for residence under EU Treaty Rights is approved, the whole process and documents needed is explained in the link below.

http://inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU+Treaty+Rights

In order to get a PPS number please follow the details in the link below.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/so ... tml#ld1a9a

My husband being European does not need anything special to start working, but I'm unsure as to what I can expect for myself?

He will need a PPS number as well to start working and the process of getting a PPS number is the same for him.

Unlike UK with the Tier 1 stamp at the airport, Ireland has no special stamp that will allow me to work from day 1?

You can’t start working from day 1, you will be entering Ireland on a holidays visa and visitors are not allowed to do paid or unpaid work. Be ready to be at least a few months* unemployed while waiting for your application for residence under EU Treaty Rights to be processed and approved.

*The EU Treaty Rights is currently experiencing long delays processing some applications and some non EU nationals have been waiting close to a year for their application to be reviewed and processed.

[rociosantana87]

Thank you Max for your reply and explanation.

So what you are saying is that I should be ready to be unemployed for up to a year... that's a downer.
I gather there is no temporary stamp or permission until I get the Stamp 4EUFAM on my passport, is there?

Also, my tourist stamp would expire long before the permission to stay is granted, should I leave and re-enter?

Thanks a lot for your reply, though really it's quite demotivating

Rocio

[saeef]

Make sure when you apply for the visa to select family of eu citizen. this will grant you the rights when you land. If you just apply for a regular visit visa this is different. My understanding is that you can work on day one that you arrive on visit visa under EU family selected in the application. Then if you want to continue living and working for more than three months you have to register.
This is my understanding, I stand to be corrected. Just trying to help.

[max307]

There is a temporary Stamp 4EUFAM that you will receive once your application is received and reviewed by INIS, you can work with this until your application is approved and you receive your “formal” Stamp 4EUFAM for 5 years. You don’t need to leave the country once the application is lodged with INIS you are assumed with “permission to remain” until the case is fully processed.

I said few months* (with the “*”) because some non EU nationals are waiting 8 weeks or more to get the temporary Stamp 4EUFAM, not the same for everyone. I guess depends on the complexity/quality of your application, nationality, case worker assigned to your application, etc.

My recommendation is to plan to be unemployed for at least 6 months and if you end up getting the temporary Stamp 4EUFAM before then great!

[max307]

Make sure when you apply for the visa to select family of eu citizen. this will grant you the rights when you land. If you just apply for a regular visit visa this is different. My understanding is that you can work on day one that you arrive on visit visa under EU family selected in the application. Then if you want to continue living and working for more than three months you have to register.
This is my understanding, I stand to be corrected. Just trying to help.

This is incorrect! Argentinians do not need a visa to enter Ireland so OP can enter the country without a visa with her EU partner and then apply from here for residence under EU Treaty Rights.

If OP was from a required visa country to Ireland and were to apply for a family of EU citizen visa, she will be given a C visa and she won't be allowed to work on that visa until her residence under EU Treaty Rights application is reviewed and a temporary Stamp 4EUFAM is issued to her.

[rociosantana87]

There is a temporary Stamp 4EUFAM that you will receive once your application is received and reviewed by INIS, you can work with this until your application is approved and you receive your “formal” Stamp 4EUFAM for 5 years. You don’t need to leave the country once the application is lodged with INIS you are assumed with “permission to remain” until the case is fully processed.

I said few months* (with the “*”) because some non EU nationals are waiting 8 weeks or more to get the temporary Stamp 4EUFAM, not the same for everyone. I guess depends on the complexity/quality of your application, nationality, case worker assigned to your application, etc.

My recommendation is to plan to be unemployed for at least 6 months and if you end up getting the temporary Stamp 4EUFAM before then great!

Thanks again, Max!! So these are better news! I will indeed be able to work then, I can imagine the offer will be more limited because I won't have the permament residence yet, but at least as far as I can understand your explanation, I wouldn't be completely unemployed for the duration of the application process.

The temporary stamp is issued around 8 weeks after submiting the application, but have you heard of it not being issued at all?

Thanks again!

RO

[max307]

I have not heard of temporary Stamp 4EUFAM not getting issued at all but I have heard of some waiting long time for their temporary Stamp 4EUFAM. In normal circumstances you should be getting a temporary Stamp 4EUFAM in a matter of months, I don’t want to be specific because as I said before every application is different.

If you don’t have immigration offences in the EU then it should be a smooth ride but even if you have a clean record INIS has a huge backlog of EU Treaty Rights applications so it will take them time to get to yours.

[saeef]

Make sure when you apply for the visa to select family of eu citizen. this will grant you the rights when you land. If you just apply for a regular visit visa this is different. My understanding is that you can work on day one that you arrive on visit visa under EU family selected in the application. Then if you want to continue living and working for more than three months you have to register.
This is my understanding, I stand to be corrected. Just trying to help.

This is incorrect! Argentinians do not need a visa to enter Ireland so OP can enter the country without a visa with her EU partner and then apply from here for residence under EU Treaty Rights.

If OP was from a required visa country to Ireland and were to apply for a family of EU citizen visa, she will be given a C visa and she won't be allowed to work on that visa until her residence under EU Treaty Rights application is reviewed and a temporary Stamp 4EUFAM is issued to her.

Ok. I am applying for my wife. I will let you know how it goes. My understanding of it is if you are married to a EU citizen your treaty rights are that you can enter with your spouse and you can, for three months work then if you want to continue after that then you should apply for the residence card. maybe ireland is different than the other eu countries but that is what I understand from the directive so that there is no hindrance to free movement and impairment to family life and rights. Let's see what some of the other have to say on this

[rociosantana87]

That's actually the case in the UK, isn't it?
My sister in law lives in the UK with her family and so that would have been our first choice, but honestly got afraid of what will happen after Brexit, if I would be granted the tier 1 stamp at the airport so as to begin working, etc... It's really nerveracking because there is always a quota of luck apparently.
We have all paperwork in order and should have no problems whatsoever, yet I'm afraid we will arrive at the airport and be denied entrance! (this has never happened every time we entered as tourists though).

I don't know, I'm reading everything and trying to make up my mind.

Thanks again

[max307]

Make sure when you apply for the visa to select family of eu citizen. this will grant you the rights when you land. If you just apply for a regular visit visa this is different. My understanding is that you can work on day one that you arrive on visit visa under EU family selected in the application. Then if you want to continue living and working for more than three months you have to register.
This is my understanding, I stand to be corrected. Just trying to help.

This is incorrect! Argentinians do not need a visa to enter Ireland so OP can enter the country without a visa with her EU partner and then apply from here for residence under EU Treaty Rights.

If OP was from a required visa country to Ireland and were to apply for a family of EU citizen visa, she will be given a C visa and she won't be allowed to work on that visa until her residence under EU Treaty Rights application is reviewed and a temporary Stamp 4EUFAM is issued to her.

Ok. I am applying for my wife. I will let you know how it goes. My understanding of it is if you are married to a EU citizen your treaty rights are that you can enter with your spouse and you can, for three months work then if you want to continue after that then you should apply for the residence card. maybe ireland is different than the other eu countries but that is what I understand from the directive so that there is no hindrance to free movement and impairment to family life and rights. Let's see what some of the other have to say on this

The only two visas a non EU national can apply to come to Ireland and join their EU spouse are visa C and visa D, on both cases upon entry to the state the non EU national must register with INIS. Non EU nationals joining their EU spouses are not allowed to enter the state and work just like that.

[saeef]

Residence card Your non-EU spouse, children and grandchildren must apply for a residence document with the authorities in the host country (often the town hall or local police station) within 3 months of arriving.
Equal treatment During their stay in your new country, your non-EU spouse, children and grandchildren should be treated as nationals, notably regarding access to employment, pay and benefits facilitating access to work and enrollment in schools.....

KEY POINTS

EU citizens with a valid identity card or passport may:

Enter another EU country, as may their family members - whether EU citizens or not - without requiring an exit or entry visa.
Live in another EU country for up to 3 months without any conditions or formalities.
Live in another EU country for longer than 3 months subject to certain conditions, depending on their status in the host country. Those who are employed or self-employed do not need to meet any other conditions. Students and other people not working for payment, such as those in retirement, must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family, so as not to be a burden on the host country’s social assistance system, and comprehensive sickness insurance cover.
Have to register with the relevant authorities if living in the country longer than 3 months. Their family members, if not EU nationals, require a residence card valid for 5 years.
Be entitled to permanent residence if they have lived legally in another EU country for a continuous period of 5 years. This also applies to family members.
Have the right to be treated on an equal footing with nationals of the host country. However, host authorities are not obliged to grant benefits to EU citizens not working for payment during the first 3 months of their stay.

[saeef]

"When an EU national is working abroad in another EU country, family members also have the right to reside and work in that country, regardless of their nationality. Children have the right to be educated there."
"Family members: do not need a work permit to work, even if they are non-EU nationals.
..have the right to equal treatment, including access to all social and tax advantages."

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=463&langId=en

[max307]

Ok so there is a difference between interpretation of immigration law in the EU and the way the law is applied in every country in the EU.

In Ireland a non EU citizen family of a EU citizen can’t just arrive and work, the non EU citizen absolutely will have the right to equal treatment, including access to all social and tax advantages, work, residence, etc. but that’s AFTER that non EU citizen register with INIS. A non EU citizen can’t just walk out of the plane and apply for a job, it does not make any sense to even contemplate that.

Just for the sake of argument let’s assume that a non EU citizen moving to Ireland with his/her EU family member is allowed to work from the first day, straight out the plane:

- How can an employer verify that the non EU citizen is actually allowed to work? How can an employer differentiate between one non EU and the other one? The same passport stamp is used for all non EU citizen upon arrival.
- What documents is the non EU citizen going to present to HR to prove that? All employers in Ireland during the recruiting process will ask you minimum for a passport even if you are EU citizen. If you are non EU they will request visa and the old GNIB card – now IRP card. How are you provide those if you went straight from the plane to a job?
- Why would the government employ people and spend so much money processing EU Treaty Rights applications if non EU family members can just land at the airport with their EU family member and take up employment?
- How can any EU country guarantee that the non EU citizen will work for only 3 months from arrival and what body within the government is quantifying/enforcing that?

I would suggest to do some research if this is the intention for your wife’s application because the information you are using and providing is incorrect and misleading.

[CR001]

In addition to user 'max307' correct and detailed post (as it applies to the UK as well), user 'saeef' kindly desist from spamming the forum. We are all well aware of the EU regulations and how it actually works in practice in different states!!

Perhaps you should concentrate on the refused UK Ancestry visa you have tried to obtain for your child and resolve that issue first.

[jul1]

it is possible to arrive as non-eu spouse of eu citizen and start to legally work the same day, its just not likely that the employer will believe you that u have eu treaty rights, if some one dont deal with immigration stuff how would they know it...

but if u find someone u believes u, there u go, u have a job, when my wife arrived she started to legally work with contract after 2 weeks, but i was living here for more than 5 years so i knew people...

She was accepted after 4 weeks after arrival and got the gnib card on the 6 week, the contract was since accepted for mortgage with no problems by the bank and since we are a happy apartment owners....

if u look for a small company or a BNB, chances are not bad, but with multinational companies it will be a problem, they want to see the eu4 fam card, which u will hold normally 6 weeks after u applied on the eu1 form, when ur here in the country already

[max307]

it is possible to arrive as non-eu spouse of eu citizen and start to legally work the same day, its just not likely that the employer will believe you that u have eu treaty rights, if some one dont deal with immigration stuff how would they know it...

but if u find someone u believes u, there u go, u have a job, when my wife arrived she started to legally work with contract after 2 weeks, but i was living here for more than 5 years so i knew people...

She was accepted after 4 weeks after arrival and got the gnib card on the 6 week, the contract was since accepted for mortgage with no problems by the bank and since we are a happy apartment owners....

if u look for a small company or a BNB, chances are not bad, but with multinational companies it will be a problem, they want to see the eu4 fam card, which u will hold normally 6 weeks after u applied on the eu1 form, when ur here in the country already

I agree and I'm pretty sure lots of non EU nationals are doing it but it is illegal.

Employers are required by law to request and keep copies of their employees immigration documents proving their right to work in Ireland, if the non EU national gets caught working without the appropriate permission will be deported and the employer will be fined.

Just to clarify your wife wasn't working "legally" if she didn't have a Stamp 4/Stamp 4EUFAM or some sort of other visa that will allow her to take up employment.

[saeef]

In addition to user 'max307' correct and detailed post (as it applies to the UK as well), user 'saeef' kindly desist from spamming the forum. We are all well aware of the EU regulations and how it actually works in practice in different states!!

Perhaps you should concentrate on the refused UK Ancestry visa you have tried to obtain for your child and resolve that issue first.

I am "spamming" now? kinda harsh assessment I think. I am just trying to help. These are the things I have read and just passing them on, each can verify for themsleves from the website. But, you are the admin, so I have to submit to that. About my sons application, today is the 15th working day, so we are looking out to see if fedex has the prepaid return yet. will let you all know.
I am glad I am posting these information because as I am corrected it will help someone else to learn which or not sites to trust. So there is a "silver lining" in my "spam". but, I hear you and will be more careful in the future. No need to put it so harshly though. Like I said, just trying to help.

[saeef]

it is possible to arrive as non-eu spouse of eu citizen and start to legally work the same day, its just not likely that the employer will believe you that u have eu treaty rights, if some one dont deal with immigration stuff how would they know it...

Thank you so much.

[jul1]

it is possible to arrive as non-eu spouse of eu citizen and start to legally work the same day, its just not likely that the employer will believe you that u have eu treaty rights, if some one dont deal with immigration stuff how would they know it...

but if u find someone u believes u, there u go, u have a job, when my wife arrived she started to legally work with contract after 2 weeks, but i was living here for more than 5 years so i knew people...

She was accepted after 4 weeks after arrival and got the gnib card on the 6 week, the contract was since accepted for mortgage with no problems by the bank and since we are a happy apartment owners....

if u look for a small company or a BNB, chances are not bad, but with multinational companies it will be a problem, they want to see the eu4 fam card, which u will hold normally 6 weeks after u applied on the eu1 form, when ur here in the country already

I agree and I'm pretty sure lots of non EU nationals are doing it but it is illegal.

Employers are required by law to request and keep copies of their employees immigration documents proving their right to work in Ireland, if the non EU national gets caught working without the appropriate permission will be deported and the employer will be fined.

Just to clarify your wife wasn't working "legally" if she didn't have a Stamp 4/Stamp 4EUFAM or some sort of other visa that will allow her to take up employment.

i would not go as far as saying deported, when "caught", they have to stop working until the papers are sorted probably. Small companies are extremely unlikely to have random checks, recently maybe nursing homes are checked much more often...

If they know they will be accepted anyway - why would not they be? only if its a sham marriage would be declined - its not worth to worry about this too much, Ireland is a way too expensive country to live in without any income, especially now during the housing crisis with extreme rent prices

[saeef]

it is possible to arrive as non-eu spouse of eu citizen and start to legally work the same day, its just not likely that the employer will believe you that u have eu treaty rights, if some one dont deal with immigration stuff how would they know it...

but if u find someone u believes u, there u go, u have a job, when my wife arrived she started to legally work with contract after 2 weeks, but i was living here for more than 5 years so i knew people...

She was accepted after 4 weeks after arrival and got the gnib card on the 6 week, the contract was since accepted for mortgage with no problems by the bank and since we are a happy apartment owners....

if u look for a small company or a BNB, chances are not bad, but with multinational companies it will be a problem, they want to see the eu4 fam card, which u will hold normally 6 weeks after u applied on the eu1 form, when ur here in the country already

I agree and I'm pretty sure lots of non EU nationals are doing it but it is illegal.

Employers are required by law to request and keep copies of their employees immigration documents proving their right to work in Ireland, if the non EU national gets caught working without the appropriate permission will be deported and the employer will be fined.

Just to clarify your wife wasn't working "legally" if she didn't have a Stamp 4/Stamp 4EUFAM or some sort of other visa that will allow her to take up employment.

With utmost respect max307, please provide documentation for this. It will help a lot as I am going through this process. is there a website that says: you cannot work until you have this or that? thanks