British citizen other than by descent? Kenya/Wales/NZ

[Nurse0628]

Hi, I found this thread which seems to relate closely to my situation. I am basically in the same boat in trying to figure out if my mother is British by descent or birth. Please advise how you managed to get it right? My mother was born in Nairobi in 1951 and currently holds a British passport. I am trying to apply for a British passport. Her father and mother were not born in the UK but they lived in Kenya for a long time.

[secret.simon]

I have spun off your query into a separate topic as it was not directly connected to the topic in which it was originally placed. As a separate thread, we can also ask you relevant questions.

When and where were each of your maternal grandparents born? When and where were you born? What kind of British passport does your mother hold (British citizen, British Overseas Citizen, etc)? Do you know if your mother was registered or naturalised as a British citizen and if so, when did she register or naturalise as a British citizen?

[kiwirobnz]

My two cents worth too - crucial to the success of J being "by descent" is that he was born in 1957 in the Colony of Kenya with married (to each other) UK born parents. So SS is right in asking the type of citizenship and where the parents were born. Good luck

[Nurse0628]

I have spun off your query into a separate topic as it was not directly connected to the topic in which it was originally placed. As a separate thread, we can also ask you relevant questions.

When and where were each of your maternal grandparents born? When and where were you born? What kind of British passport does your mother hold (British citizen, British Overseas Citizen, etc)? Do you know if your mother was registered or naturalised as a British citizen and if so, when did she register or naturalise as a British citizen?

Hi SS, sorry for delay in replying.

~ Maternal GF was born in 1916 in South Africa. His father was born in Scotland. I have my GF's 1961 British Passport and it is stamped "British Subject: Citizen of the United Kingdom & Colonies". He worked in the Crown Service so I suspect that is how he got the British Passport as I found the Application for Registration (1961).
~ Maternal GM was born in 1922 in India under British rule (although her British passport says she was born in Kenya!!?) I have her 1955 British Passport and it is stamped "British Subject: Citizen of the United Kingdom & Colonies".
~ Mother was born in Kenya in 1951. I have all her expired passports before I was born and after. She left Kenya in 1965 to live in South Africa. Her passports are also stamped "British Subject: Citizen of the United Kingdom & Colonies". She has a current British passport.
~ My Mother's unabridged Brith Certificate dated 1953 states that both her Parent's nationalities are "British"
~ My mother was put in my GM's passport in 1955 as a child but later was issued her own passport in 1965 once this passport expired
~ I was born in 1976 in South Africa
~ My Father was born in South Africa
~ My Paternal Grandmother was born in 1925 in UK

Please let me know if I can obtain via descent from my mother? I do not wish to obtain Ancestral Visa since I have a business in South Africa

Thanks!

[secret.simon]

~ Mother was born in Kenya in 1951. I have all her expired passports before I was born and after. She left Kenya in 1965 to live in South Africa. Her passports are also stamped "British Subject: Citizen of the United Kingdom & Colonies". She has a current British passport.

There are many different types of British nationality, all of whom get British passports, but which are not all inheritable nor do all of them have the right to live in the UK.

If you have access to your mother's current British passport, what does it list her nationality as on the data page of the passport (fourth line from top)?

You have mentioned that your GF had made an "Application for Registration". Does it state under what Section of the British Nationality Act did he make that application and also does he include his children (your mother) in that application?

[Nurse0628]

My mother's current passport says "British Citizen"

My GF made an "Application for Registration as a citizen of the UK and colonies under section 6 (1) of the act, made by an adult British subject or citizen of Eire, on the ground of ordinary residence in the colony and protectorate of Kenya or on the ground of crown service under Her Majesty's Government."

It states that he was a citizen of the "Union of South Africa"

It also states that he was an ordinary resident in "Kenya Colony" and that he was in the Crown Service from 1956 (which is actually 5 years after my mother's birth).

The Application was granted in 1961 and was only for himself (his wife's name is stated but not her citizenship).

I am not particularly seeking right of abode in the UK but would rather use the passport for ease of travel since a South African passport is very limited.

[Nurse0628]

~ Mother was born in Kenya in 1951. I have all her expired passports before I was born and after. She left Kenya in 1965 to live in South Africa. Her passports are also stamped "British Subject: Citizen of the United Kingdom & Colonies". She has a current British passport.

There are many different types of British nationality, all of whom get British passports, but which are not all inheritable nor do all of them have the right to live in the UK.

If you have access to your mother's current British passport, what does it list her nationality as on the data page of the passport (fourth line from top)?

You have mentioned that your GF had made an "Application for Registration". Does it state under what Section of the British Nationality Act did he make that application and also does he include his children (your mother) in that application?

Hi SS, I did reply. Please advise if there is any chance for British Citizenship as I don't want to spend time/money on this issue if no chance. It's funny because William I "The Conqueror" 1st King of England is my Paternal Great Grandfather (x28)

[secret.simon]

Edward III of England was particularly fecund and it is estimated that close to 99% of the English population around the world descends from him in some manner. Given that he is a descendent of William I (the Conqueror or the Bastard - he was illegitimate), that would make the same true for William I as well.

Descent from Edward III

As regards your original question, that will require some thought and I will get back to you in a while.

[Nurse0628]

Hi SS, please let me know if you have given any thought?

[Nurse0628]

Edward III of England was particularly fecund and it is estimated that close to 99% of the English population around the world descends from him in some manner. Given that he is a descendent of William I (the Conqueror or the Bastard - he was illegitimate), that would make the same true for William I as well.

Descent from Edward III

As regards your original question, that will require some thought and I will get back to you in a while.

Hi SS, I'm quite desperate to get my Application in before Brexit...

Is it imperative to have the Marriage Certificate for UKM form? I can show that my mother was a British Citizen before my birth by way of her expired passport as well as her original birth certificate.

Unfortunately, home affairs in South Africa is on a go slow/strike and I am having no joy in getting the marriage certificate for my mother & father.

[CR001]

Hi SS, I'm quite desperate to get my Application in before Brexit...

Why?? Brexit has no effect on citizenship laws which are UK specific.

[Nurse0628]

Hi SS, I'm quite desperate to get my Application in before Brexit...

Why?? Brexit has no effect on citizenship laws which are UK specific.

I've been told that the possibility of the British passport enjoying freedom of the EU may be restricted in certain countries?

[CR001]

Hi SS, I'm quite desperate to get my Application in before Brexit...

Why?? Brexit has no effect on citizenship laws which are UK specific.

I've been told that the possibility of the British passport enjoying freedom of the EU may be restricted in certain countries?

Yes, there will be restrictions on the free movement, however applying for citizenship is not affected by Brexit.

[Nurse0628]

Hi SS, I'm quite desperate to get my Application in before Brexit...

Why?? Brexit has no effect on citizenship laws which are UK specific.

I've been told that the possibility of the British passport enjoying freedom of the EU may be restricted in certain countries?

Yes, there will be restrictions on the free movement, however applying for citizenship is not affected by Brexit.

My children have German citizenship so there is a possibility of all of us wanting to relocate from SA to there in the future

[secret.simon]

My children have German citizenship so there is a possibility of all of us wanting to relocate from SA to there in the future

You are looking at a very narrow window of time.

Here are my thoughts.

Your familial connection to the UK (ancestors born in the UK) is quite distant. Therefore although they may have been CUKCs before 1983, they would not have had the Right of Abode since 1971 and hence they would not have become British citizens in 1983.

Your maternal grandfather registered as a British citizen in 1961, when your mother was 10. Therefore, unless he registered her separately as well, his registration as a British citizen would not have impacted her.

A few further questions to clarify the situation
a) Who issued the registration certificate for your maternal grandfather in 1961? Was it the governor of a colony (if so which), the UK High Commissioner in a particular city (if so which) or was it the Home Office in London? Can you recreate the exact text of the registration certificate excluding all personally identifiable information?
b) Are you aware if your mother was separately registered as a British citizen and if so, which month/year?
c) You have mentioned that you have all your mother's expired passports (excellent records management). What has her citizenship status been in all her passports, with especial attention to the ones in the 1970s and 1980s? Does any of her passports list her status as "British Overseas Citizen"?

[Nurse0628]

My children have German citizenship so there is a possibility of all of us wanting to relocate from SA to there in the future

You are looking at a very narrow window of time.

Here are my thoughts.

Your familial connection to the UK (ancestors born in the UK) is quite distant. Therefore although they may have been CUKCs before 1983, they would not have had the Right of Abode since 1971 and hence they would not have become British citizens in 1983.

Your maternal grandfather registered as a British citizen in 1961, when your mother was 10. Therefore, unless he registered her separately as well, his registration as a British citizen would not have impacted her.

A few further questions to clarify the situation
a) Who issued the registration certificate for your maternal grandfather in 1961? Was it the governor of a colony (if so which), the UK High Commissioner in a particular city (if so which) or was it the Home Office in London? Can you recreate the exact text of the registration certificate excluding all personally identifiable information?
b) Are you aware if your mother was separately registered as a British citizen and if so, which month/year?
c) You have mentioned that you have all your mother's expired passports (excellent records management). What has her citizenship status been in all her passports, with especial attention to the ones in the 1970s and 1980s? Does any of her passports list her status as "British Overseas Citizen"?

Hi SS, thanks for the input.

a) The registration certificate was issued by the "Colony and Protectorate of Kenya"
b) My mother was registered in Nov-1953
c) My mother's passports in 1976 & 1986 state her as being a "British Subject" and her latest one says "British Citizen"

[secret.simon]

b) My mother was registered in Nov-1953

Just to clarify, this is the registration of your mother as a British citizen and not the registration of her birth. Is that correct? If the former, was the registration also by the "Colony and protectorate of Kenya"?

c) My mother's passports in 1976 & 1986 state her as being a "British Subject" and her latest one says "British Citizen"

Which passport is the oldest passport of hers that lists her as a British citizen? Again, just clarifying that a passport after 1983 referred to her as a British subject.

A British subject without citizenship is applicable to a very small subset of people and (a) is not inheritable and (b) does not give the person a right to reside (Right of Abode) in the UK. If your mother subsequently became a British citizen, as opposed to a British subject, then she must have registered as a British citizen some time after 1983.

If that was after your birth, then you would quite likely not be able to benefit from your mother's current status as a British citizen.