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Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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Raj5
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Re:

Post by Raj5 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:33 am

Jambo wrote:It seems that the HO is really trying hard to make it difficult for British citizens to bring non EEA family members to the country.
Does Regulation 9 (2) b means that a British citizen who had been exercising his EEA Trreaty rights in some other EEA ountry can bring in only spouses and not his parents?

euroguys
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by euroguys » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:47 pm

Obie wrote:I dont think the judgement is that bad at all. Although I would have hoped for it to go further.


For people in the UK, it provides an extention of Regulation 9, beyond the economic activity people.

It makes clear that rights under Article 6 cannot qualify. But residence in conformity with Article 7 (1) and 7 (2) will qualify.

It states that residence in conformity with article 7, could on its own , qualify as genuine residence.

Someone does not have to resided in a memberstate for more that 3 months for their residence to be in conformity with article 7.

Article 7 does not say that someone has to have been in amemberstate for more than 3 months to exercise treaty rights. It simply states that residence beyond 3 months has to conform with Article 7 for it to be in accordance with the directive.

The judgement also made clear that those who have secured PR in the host memberstates also qualify.
Obie et al surely 7b depends on the host state? if they grant health cover under there public regime issue a residents card based on self suficency that is not anything to do with a third country here in the UK a residence card would not be issued for self sufficient without CHI thats a matter for individual country,s not your own country asking the applicant to prove article 7 the residence card from the host is the core proof?
2011 Sep EEA1- Portugal
2011 Nov Wife arrived
2012 Jan EEA2 Issued to Wife
2013 Apr 1a issued on arrival at port spain
2013 Nov 1a issued after day trip france
2013 Dec EEA2 applied for
2014 Jan CoA with work 3 weeks
2014 Jan Passports returned

rosebead
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by rosebead » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:14 pm

Euroguys, is the UK asking you for proof of CHI in the host country? Like you, I would've thought that a Residence Card is proof that you as the sponsor met all of your host country's requirements to its satisfaction. Immigration (EEA) Regulations only have three requirements: 1) that you worked or were self-employed 2) that you are married and were living together and 3) the centre of life balone. You only have to prove THOSE three things to satisfy Surinder Singh under UK rules, the rest is none of the UK's business! CHI in the UK is only relevant if you are a non-UK EEA national residing here as self-sufficient. Since self-sufficiency with CHI would be discounted for SS applications anyway, it has no relevance to SS applications.

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Obie » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:08 pm

I agree with the above post, save for the part where the Rose stated that being an holder is always sufficient proof that one met all the requirement in another memberstate.

I accept that this may be true in most cases, but not in all.

The appellant O in the O S reference had residence card in Spain even though on the face of it, she did not meet the requirement in article 7(2) .
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rosebead
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by rosebead » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:01 pm

Yes that's true, Obie, having a Residence Card only means that you've met the host's requirements AT THE TIME of your application but not necessarily for the whole of your residence. Only a Permanent Residence Card can convey that (for 5 years of residence at least anyway).

vinny
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by vinny » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:20 pm

Case C‑456/12 (Case O & B) wrote:60 So far as concerns Mr O., who, according to the order for reference, holds a residence card as a family member of a Union citizen pursuant to Article 10 of Directive 2004/38, it should be borne in mind that Union law does not require the authorities of the Member State of which the Union citizen in question is a national to grant a derived right of residence to a third-country national who is a member of that citizen’s family because of the mere fact that, in the host Member State, that third-country national held a valid residence permit (see Eind, paragraph 26). A residence card issued on the basis of Article 10 of Directive 2004/38 has a declaratory, as opposed to a constitutive, character (see Case C‑325/09 Dias [2011] ECR I‑6387, paragraph 49).
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raffy35
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by raffy35 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:07 am

Hello please can someone help.
I am a British citizen born in UK with Italian nationality. I have married my non EEA HUSBAND from Dominican Republic Feb this year. I recently received information that I am able to renounce my British citizenship and stick with my Italian one for the purpose of applying for an EEA Family permit for my husband and his two year old son. I am living and have done so since birth in the UK . currently unemployed but looking for work. I live in a housing association property rented. I have a 14 year old daughter from a previous relationship. We do not have any children together. We want to be together ASAP to start our life together as a family and have children together. What is the quickest route and can I successfully accomplish this as I have been informed. Please help ASAP

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by rosebead » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:51 am

raffy35, take a look at this thread: http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 54574.html

Raj5, you can only bring in your parents if they are dependent. Here's a Home Office letter that details the relevant EEA regulation, Regulation 7, and how it applies to SS: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 5.pdf.html

raffy35
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by raffy35 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:00 am

Parents?????

raffy35
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by raffy35 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:10 am

Thank you but please can you give me a yes it's possible or not as I about to pay immigration experts to do this for me.
I am not clear on what that answer means for me. Do I need to leave the UK ? If so I will lose my house what is the answer to all of this I am confused by mixed messages I am receiving

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by rosebead » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:15 am

There is no definitive 'yes' if you read that thread as it seems to be a grey area still, however it would appear that some Brits have been in fact been successful in obtaining EA Family Permits for their family members by renouncing British citizenship.

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by chaoclive » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:29 pm

No-one is able to tell you YES for sure. If you are considering doing this it should be the immigration specialists that you are listening to, rather than a bunch of people on a random forum.

You may well lose your house. This cannot be confirmed on this forum. Why aren't you contacting the people who give you the house?

BTW, you do NOT need to pay immigration specialists to renounce your citizenship for you. It's a process that is really easy to do by yourself. See the renunciation section on the gov.uk website.

raffy35
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by raffy35 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:33 pm

Thank you and yes I am aware of the process for renouncing citizenship. It is not something that the immigration specialist do anyhow. But yes you are right I should be consulting them anyway.

Raj5
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Raj5 » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:31 am

Obie can you please answer this post
"Does Regulation 9 (2) b means that a British citizen who had been exercising his EEA Trreaty rights in some other EEA ountry can bring in only spouses and not his parents?"

Raj5
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Raj5 » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:29 am

rosebead wrote:raffy35, take a look at this thread: http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 54574.html

Raj5, you can only bring in your parents if they are dependent. Here's a Home Office letter that details the relevant EEA regulation, Regulation 7, and how it applies to SS: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 5.pdf.html
Thank you Rose. Yes, regulation 7 includes dependent parents but why reglation 9 only states of about spouses.

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by rosebead » Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:39 pm

Raj5, if you're talking about this:

"9(2)(b) if the family member of P is P’s spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in the EEA State before the British citizen returned to the United Kingdom; and"

All that means is IF your family member is your spouse, they MUST have been living with you in the same household in the host country (which makes sense or why would you be married). I assume that if your family member is someone else, like a parent, they don't have to live with you but they MUST be dependent on you.

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by jinkazama_11 » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:42 pm

rosebead wrote:Raj5, if you're talking about this:

"9(2)(b) if the family member of P is P’s spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in the EEA State before the British citizen returned to the United Kingdom; and"

All that means is IF your family member is your spouse, they MUST have been living with you in the same household in the host country (which makes sense or why would you be married). I assume that if your family member is someone else, like a parent, they don't have to live with you but they MUST be dependent on you.
Your parents also have to live with u in the member state.

Raj5
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Raj5 » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:33 pm

jinkazama_11 wrote:
rosebead wrote:Raj5, if you're talking about this:

"9(2)(b) if the family member of P is P’s spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in the EEA State before the British citizen returned to the United Kingdom; and"

All that means is IF your family member is your spouse, they MUST have been living with you in the same household in the host country (which makes sense or why would you be married). I assume that if your family member is someone else, like a parent, they don't have to live with you but they MUST be dependent on you.
Your parents also have to live with u in the member state.
Jinkazama, I think you might be right. Although Regulation 9 only mentions about a spouse, the other dependent family members mentioned in regulation 7 will also have to stay in the member state with the EU national returning the country of origin.

Raj5
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Raj5 » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:06 pm

rosebead wrote:Case C‑456/12 (Case O & B):
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 56:EN:HTML

And Case C‑457/12 (Case S & G):
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 57:EN:HTML


My initial take on it is that it's probably not the best result for frontier workers (Cases S & G), in that their Member State of origin retains the right to decide whether frontier workers can keep their family members with them in their country of origin. This would be based upon whether that Member State THINKS the frontier worker would be deterred from exercising his treaty rights if his family members were prevented from residing with him. Frontier workers have not been definitively given family reunification rights by the ECJ.

As regards to those doing Surinder Singh under the new 'centre of life' rules, my take on Cases O & B is that it's ok news for returning citizens, in that their rights to family reunification should not be assessed under criteria more harsh than those for EEA nationals and family reunification in the host country. So if you conform to the conditions of Article 7 under Directive 2004/38 (also Article 16), that could be one criterion met for a right of return with family members. Paragraph 50 seems to back this up:
So far as concerns the conditions for granting, when a Union citizen returns to the Member State of which he is a national, a derived right of residence, based on Article 21(1) TFEU, to a third‑country national who is a family member of that Union citizen with whom that citizen has resided, solely by virtue of his being a Union citizen, in the host Member State, those conditions should not, in principle, be more strict than those provided for by Directive 2004/38 for the grant of such a right of residence to a third‑country national who is a family member of a Union citizen in a case where that citizen has exercised his right of freedom of movement by becoming established in a Member State other than the Member State of which he is a national. Even though Directive 2004/38 does not cover such a return, it should be applied by analogy to the conditions for the residence of a Union citizen in a Member State other than that of which he is a national, given that in both cases it is the Union citizen who is the sponsor for the grant of a derived right of residence to a third‑country national who is a member of his family.
To trigger the right of return with your family members, residence in the host country has to be "sufficiently genuine so as to enable that citizen to create or strengthen family life in that Member State." However, "residence in the host Member State pursuant to and in conformity with the conditions set out in Article 7(1) of Directive 2004/38 is, in principle, evidence of settling there and therefore of the Union citizen’s genuine residence in the host Member State and goes hand in hand with creating and strengthening family life in that Member State."


I don't like the sound of paragraph 58 though:
It should be added that the scope of Union law cannot be extended to cover abuses (see, to that effect, Case C‑110/99 Emsland‑Stärke [2000] ECR I‑11569, paragraph 51, and Case C‑303/08 Bozkurt [2010] ECR I‑13445, paragraph 47). Proof of such an abuse requires, first, a combination of objective circumstances in which, despite formal observance of the conditions laid down by the European Union rules, the purpose of those rules has not been achieved, and, secondly, a subjective element consisting in the intention to obtain an advantage from the European Union rules by artificially creating the conditions laid down for obtaining it (Case C‑364/10 Hungary v Slovakia [2012] ECR, paragraph 58).
Is the above implying that using the Surinder Singh route to avoid national immigration laws is an "abuse" (if it can be proven) and so applications could be disregarded? I thought Akrich established that motive is irrelevant as long as the economic activity has been genuine and effective.


The other thing which doesn't appear favourable is that the Union citizen has to "create or strengthen a family life with a third‑country national during genuine residence" in the host country. The ECJ judgement doesn't define what is involved in "creating or strengthening a family life." It's very open to interpretation, which no doubt Member States like the UK and Denmark will interpret very narrowly.
Rose, it appears to me that the Court has held that there has to be conformity with the EU law by the exercise of Treaty rights under articles 7 before the family member could take advantage of derived right when his or her EU national spouse returns to the country of his origin. Therefore if the EU national was only recipient of services in a host state then it not in conformity with exercise of Treaty rights under article 7 and its just the exercise of rights under article 6, so first the conditions of article 7 and 16 need to be satisfied before claiming advantage of the derived right in the country of origin of the EU national spouse. If my understanding is incorrect I may be corrected.

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by rosebead » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:31 pm

Raj5, if you take a look at the Home Office letter it says that family members mentioned in Regulation 7 fall within the scope of Regulation 9. That is all you have to worry about.

As to why it's only spouses that are mentioned in Regulation 9, my guess is as I said, because if you are married you would be expected to live together. It might also possibly be because strangely Directive/2004/38 makes no specific mention of spouses having to be in the same household together - only "beneficiaries" are mentioned as having to be in the same household as the sponsor. I guess the UK wanted to make sure they covered all bases.

If dependent parents have to live in the same household (which is not specifically mentioned in the Directive), I wonder what happens then if dependent parents have to go to a nursing home in the host country. I doubt that it can be argued that just because dependent parents can no longer live in the same household as their sponsor, they would be kicked out of the host country. I don't doubt though that the UK have harsher conditions set for granting a right of return to Brits and their parents.

Raj5, yes the recent ECJ judgment confirms that service recipients cannot take advantage of Surinder Singh case law. Only those who reside in their host EU State in accordance with Article 7 or 16 can. Returning citizens must also have "created or strengthened a family life" in the host EU State - I'm still not sure what that exactly means as it seems to me open to interpretation.

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Obie » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:25 pm

Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Raj5
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Raj5 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:12 pm

rosebead wrote:Raj5, if you take a look at the Home Office letter it says that family members mentioned in Regulation 7 fall within the scope of Regulation 9. That is all you have to worry about.

As to why it's only spouses that are mentioned in Regulation 9, my guess is as I said, because if you are married you would be expected to live together. It might also possibly be because strangely Directive/2004/38 makes no specific mention of spouses having to be in the same household together - only "beneficiaries" are mentioned as having to be in the same household as the sponsor. I guess the UK wanted to make sure they covered all bases.

If dependent parents have to live in the same household (which is not specifically mentioned in the Directive), I wonder what happens then if dependent parents have to go to a nursing home in the host country. I doubt that it can be argued that just because dependent parents can no longer live in the same household as their sponsor, they would be kicked out of the host country. I don't doubt though that the UK have harsher conditions set for granting a right of return to Brits and their parents.

Raj5, yes the recent ECJ judgment confirms that service recipients cannot take advantage of Surinder Singh case law. Only those who reside in their host EU State in accordance with Article 7 or 16 can. Returning citizens must also have "created or strengthened a family life" in the host EU State - I'm still not sure what that exactly means as it seems to me open to interpretation.

Thank you Rose. In fact I missed "I"F in Regulation 9(2) (b), so it must be applicable to all family members as stated in rgulations 7 and 8 and it was just a supposition.
In view of what has been held in AKrich my take will be that anyone exercising Treaty rights for more than a year and living with his family members in that member state will develop and strengthen family life in that member state even if the motive is to come back to the member state of origin to obtain rights conferred under EU law for his family members. The periods spent by the EU national and his family members in the cases of Surinder, Akrich and Eind have not been more than 2 years and this period will also meet the requirement of transfer of centre of life as required by regulation 9.

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Obie » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:14 pm

It appears to be Pre- OB.

I am just posting it, to ensure the forum is up to date on current position.

In any event, the law as interpreted by the CJEU will have to reign supreme.
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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by Raj5 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:02 am

Obie wrote:It appears to be Pre- OB.

I am just posting it, to ensure the forum is up to date on current position.

In any event, the law as interpreted by the CJEU will have to reign supreme.
Obie, what do you mean by pre-Ob? In what context your comment is?

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Re: Amendment to EEA Regulation from 1/01/2014 Singh diluted

Post by dalebutt » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:13 am

What he meant was, his previous post which contains the links is pre the judgement of the CJEU in the case of Case C‑456/12 (Case O & B)

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