EU national taking non-EU spouse to another EU country

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:28 am

Rozen wrote:Benifa, we are employed and my husband is Dutch born and bred!

Then are you resident in accordance with EU Directive 2004/38/EC?

Rozen · Post by **Rozen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:34 am

benifa wrote:
Rozen wrote:Benifa, we are employed and my husband is Dutch born and bred!
Then are you resident in accordance with EU Directive 2004/38/EC?

YES! We were living and married in the UK, before relocating to NL under the EU Directive.
(A 'Dutch' Surinder Singh arrangement, if you like!

)

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:41 am

Rozen wrote:
benifa wrote:
Rozen wrote:Benifa, we are employed and my husband is Dutch born and bred!
Then are you resident in accordance with EU Directive 2004/38/EC?
YES! We were living and married in the UK, before relocating to NL under the EU Directive.
(A 'Dutch' Surinder Singh arrangement, if you like! )

Then health insurance is not a condition of the right of residence if your husband is employed.

Rozen · Post by **Rozen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:54 am

benifa wrote: Then health insurance is not a condition of the right of residence if your husband is employed.

Benifa, the health insurance bit is part of the conditions for residence! What I meant is that if you are going to live in NL long term, then you must be prepared to have health insurance! Everybody does! Anyone staying long term in NL will have to apply for a BSN (fomerly SOFI number) and get medical insurance. Otherwise you will be hard pressed to get medical treatment here (apart from emergency cases). Trust me, you'll get nowhere without it! That is the reality, and thatâ€™s all I meant. Hope thatâ€™s cleared it up a bit.
Have a look...
http://www.justlanded.com/english/Nethe ... Healthcare

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:00 pm

Dutch residents are required to have Medical Insurance under Dutch law, save for few categories of temporary residents and visitors.

As Dutch citizens are required to have it, community worker will be too, as the notion of a National Health service does not exist in the Netherlands.

The only way a resident card can be issued to family members, without a Health Insurance, is if the EEA national is a Frontier Worker. In that case the Dutch will be in breach of EU law not to issue residency, i think.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:14 pm

Again, it cannot be made a condition of residence that an EU national holds health insurance if he is employed or self-employed in Holland.

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 7 wrote:Right of residence for more than three months
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for
a period of longer than three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
(c) â€“ are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host
Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal
purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and
â€“ have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the
relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as
they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family
members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member
State during their period of residence; or
(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions
referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).

Member States are not permitted to impose additional conditions on the right to reside, other than those laid out in the Directive or in relevant case law.

It may be a condition of access to healthcare in Holland that residents hold health insurance, but it cannot be a condition of residence for a person resident in accordance with the Directive.

Rozen · Post by **Rozen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:26 pm

benifa wrote:It may be a condition of access to healthcare in Holland that residents hold health insurance, but it cannot be a condition of residence for a person resident in accordance with the Directive.

Okay fine. But just so the OP knows, they will not be able to access medical services here in NL without Health Insurance. Except perhaps in an emergency. And that is the fact of the matter, regardless. Theory does not always reflect practice, as I'm sure most of us have come to discover in immigration issues. I am just advising the OP of what to expect, should they decide to come NL.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:31 pm

Agreed, but a community worker, cannot avail themselves of free Health Care. Nevertheless, it is not Prerequisite for the issuance of a Resident Card or a Resident Certificate.

I have been looking at the Dutch Application , for Verification under community Law, which is the equivalent of EU 1 in Ireland and EEA2 in UK.

Apparently, there is a section asking for Lawful residence, and for family members of returning Dutch to provide proof of Lawful resident in another member state.

I use to pride the Dutch on good implementation of Laws, but it seems they have not made necessary changes to accommodate Metock, or am i wrong.

Rozen, you might be able to shed light on this for me.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:38 pm

Rozen wrote:Okay fine. But just so the OP knows, they will not be able to access medical services here in NL without Health Insurance. Except perhaps in an emergency. And that is the fact of the matter, regardless. Theory does not always reflect practice, as I'm sure most of us have come to discover in immigration issues. I am just advising the OP of what to expect, should they decide to come NL.

And as I mentioned, it's valuable information that you provided.

However, access to healthcare is unrelated to the right of residence of EU nationals and their family members.

It is imperative that people are not led to believe that Holland is incorrectly transposing the Directive by requiring EU national workers to hold health insurance as a condition of residence for themselves and their family members.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:43 pm

Obie wrote:Apparently, there is a section asking for Lawful residence, and for family members of returning Dutch to provide proof of Lawful resident in another member state.

I use to pride the Dutch on good implementation of Laws, but it seems they have not made necessary changes to accommodate Metock, or am i wrong.

Dutch citizens and their family members, returning using Singh, should be able to provide evidence that:

a) the Dutch citizen was pursuing an economic activity while resident in another Member State and;
b) the family members were resident with the Dutch citizen.

This does not contradict Metock.

steev84 · Post by **steev84** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:43 pm

benifa wrote:
And as I mentioned, it's valuable information that you provided.

However, access to healthcare is unrelated to the right of residence of EU nationals and their family members.

It is imperative that people are not led to believe that Holland is incorrectly transposing the Directive by requiring EU national workers to hold health insurance as a condition of residence for themselves and their family members.

Quite Right

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:47 pm

Hi benifa,
Hi all,

I have my own little theory around the health-insurance, maybe it brings the different points-of-view together?

2004/38/EC wrote:Article 7

Right of residence for more than three months

1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the
territory of another Member State for a period of longer than
three months if they:

(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member
State; or

As above section (7/1/a) closes with "OR", no more conditions can be added: As soon as you are a worker, you have the right of residence for more than 3 months.

From this it may seem, as benifa sais, that you cannot be forced to have health-insurance.

However, some countries in the EU have "free" health-care systems, where pure residency protects you (I'm aware of the UK's NHS and Ireland's corresponding copy), while other systems ask you to take out personal insurance.

Maybe this was accounted for: All following sections of that paragraph (self-sufficient folks, students...) need to have health-care explicitly, while only workers don't have to.

In countries where you need to take out insurance privately, maybe this is a pre-requisite of becoming a worker, while in the UK and Ireland no insurance is needed. As such everyone is covered, while the paragraph is less complicated this way.

As a summary:

In most countries health-insurance is a prerequisite of working, hence this is a condition through the back-door, while in the UK and Ireland you're done by simply being there.

Just an idea

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:48 pm

It ask for proof of Lawful Resident in the member state from which they came, for the Non-EEA Family Member of a Dutch Citizen. That one i am sure about.

The one i am having doubts about, is the proof of Lawful resident from resident provider, and sponsor.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:55 pm

Obie wrote:It ask for proof of Lawful Resident in the member state from which they came, for the Non-EEA Family Member of a Dutch Citizen. That one i am sure about.

The one i am having doubts about, is the proof of Lawful resident from resident provider, and sponsor.

Ok, and how do you feel this contradicts Metock?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:56 pm

Hi Christian!

Rozen · Post by **Rozen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:59 pm

Obie wrote:Agreed, but a community worker, cannot avail themselves of free Health Care. Nevertheless, it is not Prerequisite for the issuance of a Resident Card or a Resident Certificate.

I have been looking at the Dutch Application , for Verification under community Law, which is the equivalent of EU 1 in Ireland and EEA2 in UK.

Apparently, there is a section asking for Lawful residence, and for family members of returning Dutch to provide proof of Lawful resident in another member state.

I use to pride the Dutch on good implementation of Laws, but it seems they have not made necessary changes to accommodate Metock, or am i wrong.

Rozen, you might be able to shed light on this for me.

YUP! Here's a brief summary of our IND interview..
My husband was asked for proof of exercising his treaty rights in the UK. He had his payslips and as well as his blue UK Residence Document card (EEA1).
He was asked "why" he was 'only now' deciding to return to NL, after living in the UK for so long! (Dumbest question I ever heard, as they could blatantly see that NL is his homeland).
I was asked to provide proof of my status in the UK and what I have been doing there from start to finish (even BEFORE I met my husband!)
I was asked why I was living in UK and not my parent's homeland! (An even dumber question, as they could clearly see I was born, studied, worked and even married in the UK).
What were we going to be doing in NL. (My husband had already opened a BV company here before we came back)
How long did we intend to stay in NL (Duh?)
Did I have a BSN (similar to NINO)? How could I? Weâ€™d only just arrived, and everything was still in process!
Okay, to be fair, the whole â€˜interviewâ€™ took all of 5 minutes, but some of the questions were utterly ridiculous!
They seem to have believed that our relationship is genuine, because the police never came knocking on our door.
Two months later I was sent a letter to collect my 5 year verblijfsdocument.
As for providing proof of exercising treaty rights in another EU country for Dutch citizens, donâ€™t you need to do that as well if youâ€™re a Brit returning to UK under Surinder Singh?

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:00 pm

(non) EU family members of Dutch citizens as described in the â€˜Notesâ€™ section
You must submit the following additional documents and documentary evidence together with your application:
â€“ A copy of your residence document issued by another Member State or Switzerland, showing evidence of your lawful stay with a Dutch citizen
in another Member State
â€“ Proof that your Dutch family member has had lawful residence in another Member State or Switzerland

The requirement for proof of prior lawful resident in another member state or lawful entry should not be a prerequisite for issuance of a Resident Card

Proof of Exercising treaty rights in another Memberstate for Singh, is not an overboard requirement, but proof of prior Lawful Resident for non-EEA family member is.

Rozen · Post by **Rozen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:06 pm

Obie wrote:
(non) EU family members of Dutch citizens as described in the â€˜Notesâ€™ section
You must submit the following additional documents and documentary evidence together with your application:
â€“ A copy of your residence document issued by another Member State or Switzerland, showing evidence of your lawful stay with a Dutch citizen
in another Member State
â€“ Proof that your Dutch family member has had lawful residence in another Member State or Switzerland

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:16 pm

Obie wrote:(non) EU family members of Dutch citizens as described in the â€˜Notesâ€™ section
You must submit the following additional documents and documentary evidence together with your application:
â€“ A copy of your residence document issued by another Member State or Switzerland, showing evidence of your lawful stay with a Dutch citizen
in another Member State
â€“ Proof that your Dutch family member has had lawful residence in another Member State or Switzerland

When using Singh, in the case of a Dutch citizen returning to Holland, the Dutch citizen and his family members should be able to provide evidence that:

a) the Dutch citizen was pursuing an economic activity while resident in another Member State and;
b) the family members were resident with the Dutch citizen.

If the family members were resident with the Dutch citizen in the UK, where the Dutch citizen was pursuing an economic activity, the family members' residence would always have been lawful. Therefore, any proof of this residency should be acceptable. Not necessarily a "residence document".

So yes, the Dutch are incorrect if they are accepting only a copy of a residence document issued by another Member State or Switzerland.

Obie wrote:The requirement for proof of prior lawful resident in another member state or lawful entry should not be a prerequisite for issuance of a Resident Card

Correct if the EU national is exercising a Treaty right in another Member State, but if return to his own country after having pursued an economic activity while resident in another Member State, it is a requirement that he is able to provide evidence that:

a) the EU citizen was pursuing an economic activity while resident in another Member State and;
b) the family members were resident with the EU citizen.

Otherwise, how is he able to prove that Singh applies to himself and his family members?

Rozen · Post by **Rozen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:25 pm

benifa wrote:
Obie wrote:(non) EU family members of Dutch citizens as described in the â€˜Notesâ€™ section
You must submit the following additional documents and documentary evidence together with your application:
â€“ A copy of your residence document issued by another Member State or Switzerland, showing evidence of your lawful stay with a Dutch citizen
in another Member State
â€“ Proof that your Dutch family member has had lawful residence in another Member State or Switzerland
When using Singh, in the case of a Dutch citizen returning to Holland, the Dutch citizen and his family members should be able to provide evidence that:

a) the Dutch citizen was pursuing an economic activity while resident in another Member State and;
b) the family members were resident with the Dutch citizen.

If the family members were resident with the Dutch citizen in the UK, where the Dutch citizen was pursuing an economic activity, the family members' residence would always have been lawful. Therefore, any proof of this residency should be acceptable. Not necessarily a "residence document".

So yes, the Dutch are incorrect if they are accepting only a copy of a residence document issued by another Member State or Switzerland.

Obie wrote:The requirement for proof of prior lawful resident in another member state or lawful entry should not be a prerequisite for issuance of a Resident Card
Correct if the EU national is exercising a Treaty right in another Member State, but if return to his own country after having pursued an economic activity while resident in another Member State, it is a requirement that he is able to provide evidence that:

a) the EU citizen was pursuing an economic activity while resident in another Member State and;
b) the family members were resident with the EU citizen.

Otherwise, how is he able to prove that Singh applies to himself and his family members?

Totally agree! I would like to believe that they would have accepted my (non EU) proof of 'lawful residence' with just my marriage certificate and joint bills/bank statements. But then again, they did see my UK Residence Card in my passport, so I don't know...

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:42 pm

Rozen wrote:I would like to believe that they would have accepted my (non EU) proof of 'lawful residence' with just my marriage certificate and joint bills/bank statements.

Precisely, and were they to have not accepted your marriage cert and joint bills/bank statements as proof of residence in the UK with your husband (together with provision of his passport / National ID card, your passport and evidence of his pursuance of an economic activity in the UK) - they would have been in breach of the Directive and Singh.

yustynne · Post by **yustynne** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:21 pm

Hello guys, really thanks for all your ideas and shared experiences! They are really very valuable and will help me to make my decision and to know what to expect in the future.
I will come to NL holding EU health insurance card valid for 3 month and i intend to start working in period of these 3 months. When do i have to register myself at the local Gemeente? During first 3 days i enter NL or during a period of 3 months? So after my EU health insurance card expires you suggest me to apply for a BSN (NL health insurance)?
So as i understood after the registration at the local Gemeente my husband will have to submit "Application for Verification against Community Law" and then IND will start processing the Residence Card. The police may visit us to check if our marriage is genuine because we have never lived together only made several meetings before marriage. I'm interested in which time police can ring at our door? Evening? Let's say me and my husband might be working daytime so if they come daytime and find empty flat so that's craziness then.
Rozen, when you applied with your spouse under EU laws what income IND required from you both to show? Let's say i may get minimum salary in NL and my husband is jobless so would it be enough to prove i can support my husband?

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:17 pm

I'm interested in which time police can ring at our door? Evening? Let's say me and my husband might be working daytime so if they come daytime and find empty flat so that's craziness then.

Be sure they will come early in the morning before u leave to work,they know their work good.But something seems to be uncanny about the whole situation.

Rozen · Post by **Rozen** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:01 pm

Yustynne,
I have sent you a PM.
Good Luck!

yustynne · Post by **yustynne** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:14 am

Hey,

I'm still searching for information about the Netherlands as I need to know everything until the last point. I've contacted the IND and SOLVIT and I got shocked about their income requirements. SOLVIT has written that I need to earn at least 1230 Euros net per month (after tax) excluding holiday allowance in order to be eligible to bring my future spouse to the Netherlands. Please tell me how can I earn 1900 Euros per month? The minimum wage is 1390 Euros per month and it makes only 930 Euros net per month (after tax). Usually such foreigners like me are hired only for the minimum wage and it's hard to find sth better. I'm so much nervous. How to make 1900 Euros per month? Does anybody have an idea? Or maybe I worry without any reason. Maybe it's not that difficult to find a better-paid job than I imagine? Could somebody tell me the salaries of different jobs that are usual to the Netherlands?
SOLVIT also mentioned that the IND will check my future spouse's criminal records. I don't understand criminal records of what? Criminal records that he has in his home country or criminal records outside his country? If he has no criminal records in Schengen area but he would be deported from another third country, would the IND get such information? Or maybe his home country would say that information?

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EU national taking non-EU spouse to another EU country