Marry her so she can stay?

[Casa]

Why has your partner applied for a Tier 4 DES which from the information you've given she obviously doesn't qualify for.

Your legal rep should be well aware that the HO are frequently refusing applications as being 'frivolous & vexatious' submitted purely as a delaying tactics under 320(11) of the UK Immigration Rules (aggravating circumstances).

This is likely to adversely affect all future applications and result in a ban.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... raph-32011

[ALKB]

why did you not consider to marry in Germany?
wouldn't be easier?

Marrying a non-EEA national in Germany is horribly complicated, takes ages to get permission for (often several months) and is very expensive (depending on country, often 500 Euro or more just to pay for the document verification process).

Denmark could be a good option but with a soon-to-expire visa it may not be easy getting a Schengen visa for that.

Well, were you expecting a free ride, of course will cost you, I bet your lawyer is costing you as much. Marrying a non-EEA in the majority of eu countries is not easy, I did marry my Peruvian wife in one of my home countries, the easy one was Switzerland in this case, but cost me much more than 500 euros, and 3 months of paperwork, emails, phone calls, etc that was in August 2014, she is still here, second application sent, and waiting to see what happens. If your relationship is really genuine, then you should be ok. good luck, looks like you are going to need some.

Who is expecting a free ride?

I am simply warning the OP that getting married in Germany in his situation will most probably not work (or be practical).

I have been married for 14 years, with two children, thank you very much. Without the use of a lawyer, mind. Who said I had a lawyer and for what??

The first application for getting married I actually submitted in Switzerland, because we had both residency there at the time. I paid SFR 1200 for document verification. This application was turned down after several months because 'somebody' had told the investigating lawyer that my then fiancé was already engaged in Pakistan.

So we lost all that money and time.

By then my Swiss contract had come to an end and I had moved back to Germany and enquired about the requirements there which sounded pretty much the same as the ones in Switzerland, which didn't bode well.

A friend then told me that a lot of Germans go to Denmark for getting married because even if both are German, it's less of a hassle there.

So I called the Danish Embassy, got a number to call in Denmark and was married two weeks later for the grand fee of about Euro 75.

Now, after I have explained myself and my apparent freeloading tendencies, I am very sorry to say that none of this will actually help the OP because his fiancée will not be able to get a Schengen visa with her UK visa expiring so soon.

[SeekingRest]

Why has your partner applied for a Tier 4 DES which from the information you've given she obviously doesn't qualify for.

She did not yet apply for the T4 DES. It Is not really obvious that she does not qualify for it since she was funded by both the UK university and China Scholarship Council, and has an uncoditional letter of consent by the UK university.
The crucial question in the application form is whether she has received any government funding in the last 12 months. "No" would be lying, but according to her some Chinese PhD friends did that and nobody noticed, although it is risky.
But what if she ticks "Yes" and only submits the UK Uni letter, but doesnt say anything about the Chinese involvement? Would the HO come back with a request for more documents, or would it count as lying (withholding of information) and therefore punishable with a ban from the country?! If the latter, she has to explicitly state in the application that there is a missing Chinese document, at which point the application will fail very likely since they want that document.

Your legal rep should be well aware that the HO are frequently refusing applications as being 'frivolous & vexatious' submitted purely as a delaying tactics under 320(11) of the UK Immigration Rules (aggravating circumstances).

This is likely to adversely affect all future applications and result in a ban.

It wouldn't be complete bogus applications. For example, she could submit the T4 DES saying that she will still get the Chinese consent letter, which should appear honest - in the end, the Chinese government just doesn't want to issue that letter but she didn't know beforehand.
An EEA EFM on the other hand doesn't have much basis. So I don't know how strict those regulations really are - can they even be applied already on the first or second application!?

[noajthan]

...

It wouldn't be complete bogus applications. For example, she could submit the T4 DES saying that she will still get the Chinese consent letter, which should appear honest - in the end, the Chinese government just doesn't want to issue that letter but she didn't know beforehand.
An EEA EFM on the other hand doesn't have much basis. So I don't know how strict those regulations really are - can they even be applied already on the first or second application!?

Don't even go there. It could still be deemed frivolous/vexatious in the context of your case.

Its a slippery slope and the wheel of immigration karma is such that something rash done now without too much thought (or at the urging of some gung ho advisor) can come back and haunt you years later.

EEA EFM is very clearcut, if you qualify (and have rock-solid supporting evidence) you can apply and have a good chance of success.

Or go somewhere - Vegas - get married and be done with it: EEA FM.
This expired visas brinkmanship is going to end in tears and just like the casinos in Vegas the house always wins.

[SeekingRest]

Thanks people for everything so far. It seems that for the family route, there are three options for us now. Correct me if I am wrong about anything, especially if any of those routes won't work, or if there are other options, please tell me.

Option 1: Marriage in the UK
She applies for EEA EFM, or T4 DES shortly before 17th, to give us time to register our intent to marry on 18th and get married afterwards. Then she applies for EEA FM.

Questions:

• How long until we have the marriage certificate, and will this be before the EEA EFM/T4 DES application finishes processing?
• How long until we have the EEA FM Visa? We heard it takes up to six months!
• Will she get a certificate of application when handing in EEA EFM or EEA FM, if yes when, and can she work with this certificate at her new company while the application is pending?
• Overall: Will the delay tactic work so she can stay until we are officially married, and when can she likely work again?

Option 1: She moves to China, then marries in an EU country
She goes back to China now, then applies for an EU Visa as a visitor. We go to an EU country of our choice, get married there, and use the marriage documents to submit an EEA FM application from China.

Questions:

• Which EU country? Denmark? What needs to be prepared and how to get/how long until we have a marriage certificate that is accepted by the UK?
• How long does it take to get the EU visa
• How long does it take to get the EEA FM - her company said it could be much quicker from outside than inside UK, only 2-3 weeks?
• Potential issues with the joint private medical insurance issued for both of us because of her change of country/address? Still valid?

Option 3: The Las Vegas marriage
Since we both still have a valid US visa, we could fly with the earliest flight to the US and marry there, then come back to the UK before 17th, and file the EEA FM application from within the UK.

Questions:

• Which county/state/city is the quickest/best in our case?
• What's the procedure, and what are the timeframes (duration of stay in US, prior notice, time until we have the documents)
• Marriage is famously quick in LA, but the document that you get might not be enough for the UK to recognise the marriage (it is not in Germany at least). Which documents would we need and how long does it take to get them?

We are coming to a turning point and will need to chose a way forward in the next 1-2 days, so I'm very thankful for any input on this personally very important matter

[SeekingRest]

Don't even go there. It could still be deemed frivolous/vexatious in the context of your case.

Thanks, probably a safe advice. Although it seems like a very punishing law if your very first Visa application in the form of a T4 DES where every document is provided except one can be misrepresented as an attempt to frustrate the Visa process.

EEA EFM is very clearcut, if you qualify (and have rock-solid supporting evidence) you can apply and have a good chance of success.

The problem is - we only live together for a few weeks, and the relationship exists for only a year. So you are saying that we shouldn't even apply? Because that could also be deemed frivolous/could be seen as attempt of frustrating Visa law, or because we should not rely on it as a delaying tactic to get married here?

Thanks so much, to be honest I am a bit disillusioned by the advice from the lawyer as she maybe made it sound easier than it is and didn't look into the documents/details at all. We really need some proper advice, but I wouldn't know where the good solicitors really are...

[noajthan]

The caseworker will look at the application in the context of your joint immigration history;
doing something odd and/or dodgy in the last days of a dying visa will surely set their spidey senses a trembling.

Two years 'akin to marriage' is needed for EFM plus the rock-solid papertrail to prove it;
if you can only prove a few weeks then forget it.

Anyway the 3C rule from UK Immigration Regs does not apply to the EU migration route;
after all no RC of any flavour is a 'visa'.
I'm saddened and disappointed your advisor does not understand and/or didn't explain that.

[noajthan]

Thanks people for everything so far. It seems that for the family route, there are three options for us now. Correct me if I am wrong about anything, especially if any of those routes won't work, or if there are other options, please tell me.

Option 1: Marriage in the UK
She applies for EEA EFM, or T4 DES shortly before 17th, to give us time to register our intent to marry on 18th and get married afterwards. Then she applies for EEA FM.

Questions:

• How long until we have the marriage certificate, and will this be before the EEA EFM/T4 DES application finishes processing?
• How long until we have the EEA FM Visa? We heard it takes up to six months!
• Will she get a certificate of application when handing in EEA EFM or EEA FM, if yes when, and can she work with this certificate at her new company while the application is pending?
• Overall: Will the delay tactic work so she can stay until we are officially married, and when can she likely work again?

Option 1: She moves to China, then marries in an EU country
She goes back to China now, then applies for an EU Visa as a visitor. We go to an EU country of our choice, get married there, and use the marriage documents to submit an EEA FM application from China.

Questions:

• Which EU country? Denmark? What needs to be prepared and how to get/how long until we have a marriage certificate that is accepted by the UK?
• How long does it take to get the EU visa
• How long does it take to get the EEA FM - her company said it could be much quicker from outside than inside UK, only 2-3 weeks?
• Potential issues with the joint private medical insurance issued for both of us because of her change of country/address? Still valid?

Option 3: The Las Vegas marriage
Since we both still have a valid US visa, we could fly with the earliest flight to the US and marry there, then come back to the UK before 17th, and file the EEA FM application from within the UK.

Questions:

• Which county/state/city is the quickest/best in our case?
• What's the procedure, and what are the timeframes (duration of stay in US, prior notice, time until we have the documents)
• Marriage is famously quick in LA, but the document that you get might not be enough for the UK to recognise the marriage (it is not in Germany at least). Which documents would we need and how long does it take to get them?

We are coming to a turning point and will need to chose a way forward in the next 1-2 days, so I'm very thankful for any input on this personally very important matter

Option 1
4-6 months or more for RC.
Noone is handed COA on applying!
- give it few weeks;
no guarantee of confirmation of right to work.

Option 2
Schengen visa - few weeks.
UK FP to enter UK - few weeks; not guaranteed first time.
EEA FM RC / COA - as per #1.
More chance of COA confirming right to work if in UK on FP.

Option 3
US visa - no idea.
UK FP then EEA FM RC / COA - as per #2

[Casa]

Also consider that with Option 1 you won't have time to marry before her current visa expires, in which case the HO may not allow the marriage to go ahead as she will be an overstayer and at risk of being detained.

[bathanza]

Hello OP. Does your future wife have something on the lines of a National ID card? This can be submitted instead of the passport thus allowing marriage.

If the appointment, as i read it, is to lodge notice you most likely will be subject to a 70 day notice period. Will make it slightly more complicated.

If i were you.. book a flight to vegas and get married and go via EEA family permit route as outlined. Best of luck

[SeekingRest]

Hey, thanks for your input guys. I wanted to give you an update on what happened so far.

We got married in Las Vegas on 15.01. and obtained the certified copy of the marriage certificate. A few days after that, my partner went back to China, and I went back to London.
Her boss agreed that immigration advisors from XXX should help us in making the EEA family permit application, and also gave her some work to do while she is in China. They checked our documents and submitted the online application form on her behalf to get an appointment in China.

My partner went with all the documents to the appointment in China and presented the documents, also asked whether a smartphone chat history would be neccessary, to which she got the answer that the other documents should be sufficient evidence.

But now we get a refusal letter, and we are pretty shocked about it. See at the end of the post. So now we wonder what our options are.

1. It says we have no right to appeal. Can we at least submit a new application in the next few weeks and have that be considered with fair judgment?
2. The letter says that "while I note you have submitted a letter from XXXX stating you have submitted a certified copy of [YOUR HUSBANDS] passport, the documents you have submitted in support of your application do not demonstrate your sponsors nationality" and "we are not satisfied [MY PARTNER] is thefamily member of an EEU national" - does this mean they somehow did not receive the certified copy of my German passport which we submitted as part of the application?! What could have went wrong there?! My only explanation is that somehow they didn't see or get my passport, which clearly proves I am German...
3. They also complain that the marriage certificate from Las Vegas only states [MY NAME, FROM LONDON] and not my nationality. Does it mean we somehow have to get another marriage certificate with nationalities on them, or apply for another document here in the UK certifying the authenticity of that marriage? Or does it not need to be on there, but they say it isn't because they somehow did not receive of evidence of my German nationality and therefore they tried to find it on the Marriage certificate?
4. They say they don't believe the relationship is genuine because NO evidence was provided apart from photos. But we DID send in bookings confirming our flights to New York, and also Germany for a trip to my parents, which they don't mention at all. Is that not good evidence, or is it only good evidence if also proven to be trips taken as a couple, for example combined with photos of that trip?
5. During the appointment they told her that chat logs are not neccessary, but apparently this is exactly the kind of evidence that they want, am I correct?
6. If they are not convinced about whether our marriage is genuine, why do they not invite my partner to an interview to investigate, or give our friends a call which we were REQUIRED to provide as contact persons, who would confirm this is not a marriage of convenience, and instead just flat out refuse the application?
7. Was this decision made in conformity with the law? Particularly because they say we have no right to appeal based on their assumption that I am not an EU citizen, which is clearly not true.
8. How do we attach dates for photographs in a believable fashion? After all, you could scribble any date on a photo after the fact, and we dont have cameras that imprint the date directly on the photo or sth. Is there some kind of certification process?

We are also pretty shocked by the fact that even with an immigration counsellor checking all our documents, really basic mistakes seem to be made (wrt my passport), nobody warned us that chat evidence and other evidence proving our relationship is genuine would be that crucial, and the woman during the appointment also said chat evidence wouludn't be neccessary. So basically we got some disappointing or downright wrong advice.

[CR001]

I have removed your reference to the immigration company as this is not permitted on the forum. Can you kindly black out this detail in the letter and repost the images.

[Casa]

Was this the same Immigration Advisor that gave you poor advice on your options previously?

[SeekingRest]

Oh and how to go about providing evidence that the relationship is genuine? Photos from each month, dated in some believable fashion? Chat logs with mutual "I love you" confessions? Statement from my mother's landlord that we stayed at my mother's place for the Germany trip? Confirmation from the photo shooting agency where we took some photos that these were made in June 2016?

Reposting the images here since I wasnt allowed to mention the immigration company. No it was not the same immigration company as the one we engaged before, I thought it was more trustworthy as it is big and operates all over the globe.

Thanks for all your help. When even the immigration counselling doesn't make it work, your feedback is all the more valuable.

[CR001]

Reposting the images here since I wasnt allowed to mention the immigration company.

The reason it is not permitted is that immigrationboards.com could be open to a lawsuit and the company mentioned will have no idea you are posting about their poor service and therefore cannot defend themselves (yes I know what you are thinking) but this forum is very public and you posting their name will appear in a Google search if someone, or the company, searches the company's name.

[Obie]

You application was ill-prepared by the adviser and hence the difficulties that you faced.

You should consider reapplying.

[asif_sharif]

another idiot advisor tick's me right off money grabbing scum bags


like cockroaches !

[michelle25]

Oh and how to go about providing evidence that the relationship is genuine? Photos from each month, dated in some believable fashion? Chat logs with mutual "I love you" confessions? Statement from my mother's landlord that we stayed at my mother's place for the Germany trip? Confirmation from the photo shooting agency where we took some photos that these were made in June 2016?

Reposting the images here since I wasnt allowed to mention the immigration company. No it was not the same immigration company as the one we engaged before, I thought it was more trustworthy as it is big and operates all over the globe.

Thanks for all your help. When even the immigration counselling doesn't make it work, your feedback is all the more valuable.

Hi,


I used a completely different route but the first time I got refused was because I didn't provided my sponsors (British) passport and they couldn't verify if he was British or not. When you fail to provide nationality confirmation for Eu citizen there's no right to appeal given. At least on the route I was doing sending the original passport of the sponsor is mandatory almost vital so I couldn't really tell you if this apply to you as well but if I could I would send it with the application, after you receive Coa you can apply for it back

As for evidence of relationships I'll send everything I got, specifically in your case that unfortunately you don't count with years and years of relationship. Consider this:

- Letters/texts/chats between the two of you
- letters/bills/tenancy agreement as proof of cohabitation
-letters from family, friends, work colleagues, work bosses anyone that knows you as a couple even neighbours saying basically that they know you in person and that your relationship is genuine

And I would even send things that could sound very silly like flights records, pictures, valentines cards, I usually leave notes in the table for my husband when he comes back late from work I'll be sending them as well.

Basically send everything you can possibly think of. Think about it this way, they refused you for not providing enough evidence of relationship, now do the whole opposite


Good luck

[SeekingRest]

Thanks for the good advice!

Turns out that during the appointment in China that my partner was attending, the woman there gave BACK the certified copy of my passport to my partner saying that she verified it. Also, my partner asked whether she should provide chatlogs, and got a "No thats fine" response.
Although she was in no position to decide that on her own, she then apparently sent the application WITHOUT my passport copy and WITHOUT any further proof of the relationship except for a few photos. No wonder we got refused. Crazy that we prepare so much and such a dumb mistake by someone else is the problem, not one of the 100 documents that need to be sent in...

We are going to send in a Whatsapp call log and screenshots of the text log that demonstrate communication at least once every week, over the past year. The photos will be dated properly to prove that they were not made last minute. I signed an affidavit stating that I am in a genuine relationship etc. etc. and we got witness statements from our friends and my family.

What is a bit crazy at the moment is that they expect original bank statements from her not older than 31 days despite the fact that she is in China and her Bank is in England, so we have to send a very expensive priority mail to China as soon as the bank sent us the statements home, so we enough time to schedule the appointment.

Overall, we will swamp them with evidence this time. Hope it works out for both of us, Michelle!