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Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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cat360
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Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by cat360 » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:28 am

We have been living in the UK for 4 years. We have already extended my child's family dependant visa for 2.5 years and is valid until December 2025.
I have a British passport, through my father who is British. Our daughter was born in South Africa.
My husband in the last 3 years has traveled for work to the USA for 276 days. The MN1 form for section 3(5) application states the following:
"The child and their parents must not have been absent from the UK (or the British Overseas Territories if appropriate) for more than 270 days during the 3-year residential period. There is no discretion to disregard absences greater than 270 days"

I am worried about the statement of no discretion. We are considering applying anyway with a letter explaining the absence was due to work. The nature of my husbands work means that he may travel out of the UK again, therefore how will we ever guarantee that he will be within the 270 days? We also would not want to have to extend her visa again, because of his work.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by contorted_svy » Sat Jan 11, 2025 1:33 pm

I am afraid that if it stated that there is no discretion, there will be no discretion. Your husband is only just over the limit, it shouldn't be too hard to get below that limit in the next weeks?
All advice comes from personal research and experience and should not be regarded as professional opinion.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by cat360 » Sat Jan 18, 2025 11:09 am

Thank you for your response, I only saw this response when I logged in. If we were to apply today, that means we have to provide all the times out of the UK between the 18 Jan 2022 and today. He has a trip made in November 2022 as the earliest, which means we will need to wait until Jan 2023 ,which was his next trip. Our daughters visa expires in December 2025, so that means we will yet again have to apply for another visa.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by contorted_svy » Sat Jan 18, 2025 12:59 pm

I am not sure about this - a more experienced mod may be better placed to answer this specific query, but it is possible that your daughter won't need a visa as she will have an entitlement to be registered. But I am not entirely sure.
@secret.simon, @vinny, can either of you help?
All advice comes from personal research and experience and should not be regarded as professional opinion.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by BashirB » Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:00 pm

Are you sure that your child is not already British?

There is the double descent rule, so unless your daughter, you and your father were all born outside UK, there is a claim to citizenship.

Even if no direct claim, if you are British, you can still apply to register your child as British on her+your own record rather than through the father's ILR process.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by secret.simon » Tue Jan 21, 2025 1:20 am

BashirB wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:00 pm
There is the double descent rule...

Even if no direct claim, if you are British, you can still apply to register your child as British on her+your own record rather than through the father's ILR process.
Could you explain what you mean by the double descent rule?

As for claiming on the mother's own record, the OP is doing precisely that. She is looking at registering the child through an entitlement as a child of a British citizen by descent.

But Section 3(5) requires both parents (the British citizen by descent parent AND the other parent) and child to not have been absent from the UK for more than 270 days in the year.
Section 3 of the British Nationality Act 1981 wrote:(5) A person born outside the United Kingdom and the qualifying territories shall be entitled, on an application for his registration as a British citizen made while he is a minor, to be registered as such a citizen if the following requirements are satisfied, namely—

(a)that at the time of that person’s birth his father or mother was a British citizen by descent; and

(b)subject to subsection (6), that that person and his father and mother were in the United Kingdom or a qualifying territory at the beginning of the period of three years ending with the date of the application and that, in the case of each of them, the number of days on which the person in question was absent from the United Kingdom and the qualifying territories in that period does not exceed 270; and

(c)subject to subsection (6), that the consent of his father and mother to the registration has been signified in the prescribed manner.
And the form is correct. There is no discretion granted. That is true of all entitlements to be registered as a British citizen.

All entitlements listed in the British Nationality Act 1981 list conditions that must be met in toto for the entitlement to be triggered.

To the OP: did you reside in the UK for at least three continuous years before the birth of the child? And if yes, do you have proof of such residence? If yes, the child can be registered under Section 3(2).

Alternatively, can you request your partner to travel less until the conditions are met and you can make the application? They can resume their travels after the application is submitted.

If you need discretion to be exercised, it become a normal application under Section 3(1), which is wholly at discretion. You could possibly make the application under Section 3(1), stating that you almost meet the conditions under Section 3(5) but for this specific detail and requesting the caseworker to grant it under discretion.

Note that if your child is registered under Section 3(1), she herself will become a British citizen by descent (because one of their parents was a British citizen by descent at the time of their birth), whereas if she was registered under Section 3(5), she would become a British citizen otherwise than by descent.
contorted_svy wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2025 12:59 pm
it is possible that your daughter won't need a visa as she will have an entitlement to be registered.
Nope. The child will need a visa if she is not a British citizen. The entitlement to be registered is just that, an entitlement. it gives no privilege as to residence in the UK unless it is exercised and granted, and even then, only from the date of the grant, not from the date of application.
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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by contorted_svy » Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:53 am

secret.simon wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 1:20 am
Nope. The child will need a visa if she is not a British citizen. The entitlement to be registered is just that, an entitlement. it gives no privilege as to residence in the UK unless it is exercised and granted, and even then, only from the date of the grant, not from the date of application.
Maybe I explained myself poorly. What I meant is that not renewing the visa for children in certain categories doesn't affect their entitlement to British citizenship (I could not find a reference to lawful residence in OP's case). So OP could avoid applying for child's visa and wait until they can apply for registration, if my understanding is correct about not needing lawful residence.
All advice comes from personal research and experience and should not be regarded as professional opinion.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by secret.simon » Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:38 pm

contorted_svy wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:53 am
Maybe I explained myself poorly. What I meant is that not renewing the visa for children in certain categories doesn't affect their entitlement to British citizenship (I could not find a reference to lawful residence in OP's case). So OP could avoid applying for child's visa and wait until they can apply for registration, if my understanding is correct about not needing lawful residence.
Let me put it this way.

The child's lack of legal residence (i.e. no valid visa) will not impact the entitlement the child has for an application under Section 3(5), provided all conditions of the entitlement are met.

The child's lack of legal residence (i.e. no valid visa) will impact any application made under Section 3(1), because it is an application at discretion and there is no entitlement.

For the child to retain its entitlement, the father needs to curtail his travels out of the UK.

If the application is at discretion, the child would likely need a continuous legal residence, or a compelling compassionate reason for not having such legal residence.

Does that answer your question, @contorted_svy?
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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by contorted_svy » Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:18 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:38 pm
contorted_svy wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:53 am
Maybe I explained myself poorly. What I meant is that not renewing the visa for children in certain categories doesn't affect their entitlement to British citizenship (I could not find a reference to lawful residence in OP's case). So OP could avoid applying for child's visa and wait until they can apply for registration, if my understanding is correct about not needing lawful residence.
Let me put it this way.

The child's lack of legal residence (i.e. no valid visa) will not impact the entitlement the child has for an application under Section 3(5), provided all conditions of the entitlement are met.

The child's lack of legal residence (i.e. no valid visa) will impact any application made under Section 3(1), because it is an application at discretion and there is no entitlement.

For the child to retain its entitlement, the father needs to curtail his travels out of the UK.

If the application is at discretion, the child would likely need a continuous legal residence, or a compelling compassionate reason for not having such legal residence.

Does that answer your question, contorted_svy?
I think it does - thank you. What I believe OP could interested in is in knowing that if they wait until the trips abroad go down (and therefore do not need to ask for discretion for an application under 3(5)) they could then in principle not renew the child's visa, which expires in December 2025.



But this option rests on both parents living in the UK for 3 years and meeting the residence requirements as outlined above. If you don't have a stint of continuous residence in the UK for both parents under the 270 days in three years rule, and you want to avoid renewing the child's visa, what I am outlining above should be a way to proceed. If these absences can't be cut down you will have to renew your daughter's visa and apply under section 3(1) at discretion of the HO secretary - note there is a set of expectations to meet for that too.
All advice comes from personal research and experience and should not be regarded as professional opinion.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by cat360 » Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:35 pm

Thank you all for the advice given . We have submitted the application under section 3(5) with a letter from ourselves and my husbands employer explaining the absence and our commitment to living in the UK. My husbands work does involve international travel, where again he will be travelling in the next two weeks . There is no guarantee that he won’t exceed the 270 days again in a 3 year period.
I have a British passport via descent but my daughter and husband were born in South Africa. I did not live in the uk prior to my daughter’s birth.
We hope for a positive outcome for our daughter’s application. If not successful then I’m not sure which visa to apply for my daughter .I think it’s indefinite leave to remain. Is that correct ?
Thanks again.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:07 pm

Please keep us posted about the outcome of your application, in particular, if it is granted under Section 3(5) or Section 3(1).

As the form and I mentioned above, Section 3(5) has no discretion to disregard any requirement. And the caseworker can't exercise discretion when not given by the law.

It would be interesting if the caseworker automatically considers and grants the application under Section 3(1), which does involve the exercise of discretion.

The difference between the two is that registration under Section 3(5) will make the child a British citizen otherwise than by descent, while a Section 3(1) registration in this case would make the child a British citizen by descent.

Registration under section 3(1) will give British citizenship by descent if the father or the mother was a British citizen at the time of the child’s birth.
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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by cat360 » Mon Apr 14, 2025 12:22 pm

Hi everyone, me again!
The home office responded to the MN1 application and it was refused. The reason is because of her fathers travel outside of the UK in the last 3 years is greater than 270. There is no desecration, even though we were desperately hoping that they would have some leniency on this, as it was for work.
She will be eligible to apply via the MN1 at the end of July 2026 where the amount of days her father was out of the country in the last 3 years will no longer exceed 270 days.

My daughters FLR ( FP) expires in December 2025. Can someone please confirm do we just do another extensions on the FLR ( FP) or is there another visa/ application/ process we should do?
Thank you once more for your advise!

For those interested, here is the extract out of the refusal letter, which explains the reason why it was declined. I have replaced my daughters name as x, mother as z and father as y.



This decision relates to x You should help them to read and understand the information below


Your application for British Citizenship has been refused
Your application for British Citizenship was received on 28th January 2025. Your application has been considered under section 3(5) of the British Nationality Act 1981.

You have not demonstrated that you meet the requirements for British Citizenship and your application has been refused.

What this means for you
You have not been registered as a British Citizen.

The reasons for this decision are set out in the next section.
Yours sincerely

Xxxxxxx name removed by moderator
CT4

On behalf of the Secretary of State for the Home Department

Your personal information
The Data Protection Act 2018 governs how we use personal data. For details of how we will use your personal information and who we may share it with please see our Privacy Notice for the Border, Immigration and Citizenship system at https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... itizenship. This also explains your key rights under the Act, how you can access your personal information and how to complain if you have concerns.

Reasons for decision
Due to z mother acquiring British Citizenship under section 2(1)a, we have considered registering x using the guidance for section 3(2) and 3(5) of the British Nationality Act 1981

The British Nationality Act 1981 contains a number of provisions which give minors in certain circumstances an entitlement to registration as British citizens. They are:

“You must normally register a child if:
• if the parent had registered before the child’s birth, the child would be a British citizen or have an entitlement to be registered under section 3(2) or 3(5)
• where necessary both parents consent to the registration
• there is no reason to refuse on character grounds”

Unfortunately, x does not meet the criteria under section 3(2) because:

x mother, z has not lived in the UK for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before x birth
The criteria under section 3(5) is also not met because:

The child and both of their parents have not been absent from the UK for more than 270 days in that 3-year period. There is no discretion to accept a longer period of absence than 270 days in the 3 years before the date of the application.
As x s father, y, has absences over 270 days during the 3 years before the date of application, this mandatory requirement is not met.

Further consideration has been made under the usual expectations in section 3(1) of the British Nationality Act 1981.

3(1) discretionary registration – reasons for refusal

Details of the usual expectations for section 3(1) can found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61/section/3

Section 3(1) allows for registration as a British Citizen at the Home Secretary’s discretion, the only mandatory requirements are that an applicant is under 18 and of good character. These requirements have been met, however, there are usual expectations that your x would normally be expected to meet.

These are set out in the Form MN1 guidance, details can be found on pages 15 & 16 at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... 1-guidance

x application has been considered in line with the three usual expectations set out in the above guidance document.

Children applying in line with parents
She does not meet this criteria because:

x is not settled in the UK
x father, y, does not hold settled status
Children with settlement and residence
She does not meet this criteria because:

x has not completed a period of lawful residence in the UK of more than 5 years
x has not been granted settled status in the UK, and/or held settled status for at least 12 months
Neither of xs parents have completed a period of 5 years residence in the UK
xs father, y, does not hold settled status
Children who have lived in the UK for more than 10 years
She does not meet this criteria because:

x has lived in the UK for 4 years
I have considered whether there are grounds to exercise discretion to register x as a British Citizen and have taken into account her British mother. However, I am not satisfied there are sufficient grounds to do so. Although x has resided in the United Kingdom since 7th December 2020, none of the usual expectations have been met.

We have taken into consideration the mitigating factors that have been explained as to why x should be registered as a British Citizen at this time, when the usual expectations have not been met. However, there appears to be no exceptional circumstances to justify registration at this time. Therefore, x application is refused.

Next steps
The application fee for British Citizenship is not refundable and has been retained to cover the cost of handling and processing your application.

You can request a review of this decision using the form at https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ed-form-nr

If you still wish to become a British Citizen, you can make a new application. You can do this at any time, but you are advised to ensure, as far as possible, that the requirements are met before doing so.

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by contorted_svy » Mon Apr 14, 2025 1:02 pm

As I advised above, if I understand correctly (and more experienced members may comment further) if you apply again in Jan 2026 under Section 3(2) your daughter doesn't need to have been lawfully resident the whole time. If you intend to apply under section 3(1) she will need a visa instead (can't advise on the correct option for that sorry). @secret.simon may confirm if what I am saying is correct.
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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by cat360 » Mon Apr 14, 2025 1:50 pm

Thank you. Unfortunately we cannot apply for my daughters citizenship under Section 3(2) , because me as the BP holder ( mother) did not live in the UK 3 years prior to her birth. I am struggling to understand section 3(1). Is this a route that she can apply via?

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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by CR001 » Mon Apr 14, 2025 1:55 pm

cat360 wrote:
Mon Apr 14, 2025 1:50 pm
Thank you. Unfortunately we cannot apply for my daughters citizenship under Section 3(2) , because me as the BP holder ( mother) did not live in the UK 3 years prior to her birth. I am struggling to understand section 3(1). Is this a route that she can apply via?
UKVI already considered Section 3(1) and did not exercise discretion, as the child doesn't meet all the requirements.

The child applies for ILR when your spouse does, after 5 years on their spouse/child visas.

Or extend her current visa for a further 2.5 years.
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Re: Absence greater than 270 days due to work travel MN1 Section 3(5)

Post by cat360 » Mon Apr 14, 2025 3:06 pm

Thank you very much. We will do the extension on her visa FLR FP

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