Irish Citizenship application (Form 8) - How did you organise your application?

[markem]

... the fallacy of your argument

[bobu2kadu]

... the fallacy of your argument

fallacy
/ˈfaləsi/
noun
a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound arguments.

[Eu fam2013]

How does it work with the Irish reference ? Do they call them and do they have to be people one has known for 5solid year or less pls help

[markem]

Compare:

• 2014: 340 undecided applications vs 15,474 total applications (2.2%)
• 2015: 330 undecided applications vs 12,712 total applications (2.6%)
• 2016: 1,700 undecided applications vs 13,011 total applications (13.1%)
• 2017: 7,330 undecided vs unknown total ... say 12,000 (61%)

Cold comfort to those in that are waiting that long, but for the vast majority the decision times are measured in months rather than years.

I asked a TD to ask a parliamentary question to get the same numbers again... here is the response

Here's the updated numbers:

• 2014: 368 undecided applications vs 15,474 total applications
• 2015: 213 undecided applications vs 12,712 total applications
• 2016: 768 undecided applications vs 13,011 total applications
• 2017: 2,787 undecided vs unknown total ... say 12,000
• 2018: 7,608 undecided year-to-date

[markem]

Received a further update on numbers from another Dail question (as yet unpublished so no link):

• 2014: ~368 undecided applications vs 15,417 total applications
• 2015: ~213 undecided applications vs 12,654 total applications
• 2016: 763 undecided applications vs 13,018 total applications
• 2017: 2,787 undecided application vs 11,776 total applications
• 2018: 8,203 undecided applications vs 12,724 total applications
• 2019: 2,556 undecided applications

How does this compare to previous stats? The same data as at 25 April 2018 is the best point of comparison. At that time there were:

• 2,770 applications on hand from that year (2018) ... 2,556 for 2019 is a bit lower
• 7,330 applications on hand from prior year (2017) ... 8,203 for 2018 is about 10% higher
• 1,700 applications on hand from 2 yrs prior (2016) ... 2,787 for 2017 is about 50% higher

The numbers of applications on hand from 2014 to 2016 has not changed much the last few times I've asked. In total, the number has reduce by only around 10 applications since November 2018. Around 500 applications from 2017 have been decided on since November 2018.

[littlerr]

• 2018: 8,203 undecided applications vs 12,724 total applications

That number seems way too high. I would have thought that if a straightforward application takes 6 months, even with some delays, the majority of 2018 applications should be resolved now. Maybe they are just waiting for the next ceremony in order to be able to sign off these applications? Anyway that's a humiliation.

[markem]

That number seems way too high. I would have thought that if a straightforward application takes 6 months, even with some delays, the majority of 2018 applications should be resolved now. Maybe they are just waiting for the next ceremony in order to be able to sign off these applications?

They say that there is always a cohort of applications approved and awaiting a ceremony. Impossible to know how many are in that bucket, but as a ceremony has just been held in April the natural assumption would be that the number should be low. In any case, this is always true to some degree, so you should be able to compare the numbers year-to-year.

And when you do that... the trend doesn't look good. This chart shows the applications on hand over the last 10 years. There was a big problem back in 2011/2012 that was resolved in 2013 with significant numbers dealt with. BUT, you can see since 2015 the numbers on hand have been steadily building up again.

[southcal]

2018: 8,203 undecided applications vs 12,724 total applications
2019: 2,556 undecided applications

Although you received their response in May, is it possible their data is few months old?
If there were 12,700 applications in 2018, that would mean around 1000 per month, so 2500 pending from 2019 would suggest their data could be from February/March? That would also mean the numbers are before the last April ceremony.

[littlerr]

Another problem will be the lack of ceremonies if this trend continues.

Around 2400 applicants attended the April ceremony, which is one of the 3 large ceremonies this year in Killarney. So in total that would be around 7200 approvals. With the addition of some smaller ceremonies that total number would be definitely less than 8500.

I don't know the refusal rate but I doubt if it would be more than 15%. With that in mind, they can approximately process only 10000 applications every year, while we have more than 10000 applications eery year for the last 5 years, and it is unlikely that this trend will stop due to Brexit this year. They are going to have a larger backlog, and more and more people will get stuck in the never ending "in progress" lies.

[southcal]

Yes it doesn't look that good, but on the bright side I believe in their stats adults and minors applications are counted together, but ceremonies are only attended by adults. I think around 20% of applications would be minors.

[markem]

2018: 8,203 undecided applications vs 12,724 total applications
2019: 2,556 undecided applications

Although you received their response in May, is it possible their data is few months old?
If there were 12,700 applications in 2018, that would mean around 1000 per month, so 2500 pending from 2019 would suggest their data could be from February/March? That would also mean the numbers are before the last April ceremony.

The data should be up to date. The question was asked and answered within the last 2 weeks, and the Minister said it is the number of applications "currently on hand."

[markem]

I don't know the refusal rate but I doubt if it would be more than 15%.

Looking back it is around 4%.

I believe in their stats adults and minors applications are counted together, but ceremonies are only attended by adults. I think around 20% of applications would be minors.

This is a good point. I think you're right - the number of applications and decisions include both, but children don't attend ceremonies. I don't know about 20%, but if that's correct the number of ceremony slots looks ok.

[littlerr]

Undeniably they have more and more people who are waiting longer and longer than their stated 6-month. I had a straightforward application (5 years work, no welfare, no fines, no dependants, no gap in registrations, no illegal overstay in any country) it still took 8 months and dozens of hours of phone calls to get an approval. Last year they have many people who are approved but cannot be included in the ceremony and had to wait for an extra 5 months.

I would prefer the old way of going to court to be sworn in, as the local courts can arrange for availability by themselves. In the UK applicants can even pay extra money to get a private ceremony.

Minister Flanagan may think it's better to have five thousand people to drive for 4 hours to be in the same room to have a sense of attending something serious. That would work well, if and only if they keep up with the number of applications they process every year and they can provide an online tracking system of some sort and a modernised telephone queuing system.

[markem]

Undeniably they have more and more people who are waiting longer and longer than their stated 6-month.

The Minister has recently said that the average wait time is:

• 6.7 months in 2016
• 7.2 months in 2017
• 6.5 months in 2018

If this is true, then for every application that takes longer, there must be one that is faster! Would love to be in their shoes!

I had a straightforward application [...] and it still took 8 months and dozens of hours of phone calls to get an approval.

I thought my application would be straightforward as well. However, with no progress in a year, I've recently done a FOI request to get more information on what is the hold-up.

Minister Flanagan may think it's better to have five thousand people to drive for 4 hours to be in the same room to have a sense of attending something serious. That would work well, if and only if they keep up with the number of applications they process every year and they can provide an online tracking system of some sort and a modernised telephone queuing system.

It is bizarre that their first choice of things to "fix" in the system is to hold a costly/time consuming/inconvenient/ultimately unnecessary ceremony. And then to hold it in a place that forces the majority of participants to travel overnight to attend it. My guess is that it is significantly cheaper for the DoJ to hold ceremonies outside of Dublin.

[southcal]

I don't know about 20%, but if that's correct the number of ceremony slots looks ok.

Yes it's around 20%, there is a PQ with exact numbers, but can't find it now. However this should confirm it as well. "Indeed since 2011, over 120,000 people, including just over 27,000 children have been naturalised."

Regarding ceremonies, I see them as a positive step rather than queuing and using up time in local courts, it's just I wish they were held more often.

haha yes 6.7 months somehow sounds too good, I'm at 6 months still no second letter

[littlerr]

If there are too many small ceremonies, it kind of defeats the purpose of making it a special day.

I still enjoyed the ceremony somehow, except for the fact that I had to drive 8 hours round trip even when on sick leave, take my girlfriend who has just had a major eye surgery with me as she won't be able to see anything alone, spend a lot €€€ on fuel and accommodation, request for a day off work and had to fly 12 hours to the US and drive for 4 hours on the next morning.

And part of the reason that I am going to remember the ceremony is because I had to accommodate for so many inconveniences. (The ceremony is good by the way.) I just don't see the point if having this ceremony would hold up more and more people's applications and make so many people's life more miserable.

[Michellekim34]

THE INFORMATION BELOW SHOULD BE USEFUL/HELPFUL TO SOME OF OUR MEMBERS HERE ON THIS FORUM (PLEASE NOTE THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL BUT SOMEONE'S CANDID OPINION BASED ON EXPERIENCE HANDLING APPLICATIONS FOR OVER FIFTY FAMILY, FRIENDS ETC.)

Simple time line that always work : (Following is for normal 5 years cases : Spouses of Irish subjects get it quicker than rest but not ALWAYS )

First letter / acknowledgement = 3 days to 2 weeks maximum . ( usually 1 week )

Second Stage Letter = 4 week to 8 weeks ( usually 6 weeks ) Will increase by a few days if they asked for anything .

Now is the stress stage : Approval letter

Look at date of your second stage letter ... Add 3 months 25 Days . ( Give or take 5 days ) You should have an approval letter . If not you been naughty somewhere .

in the waiting time simply email them if you are not sure about how is your application progressing .

The above include

Garda checks = 4 weeks
Revenue / Benefit / Social checks = 1 to 2 days each ( usually 1 day )
Advance Stage 3 to 6 weeks ( usually 4 )
Minister office = 3 to 4 weeks ( usually 3 )

Does Benefits/ Social of any kind delays you application ===== No
Do they give approval while you are on benefits / social welfare or were in last 3 years ===== Yes

Traffic and other offences delays = Not at all if you have not gone to court .

Court appeared and cleared or found guilty or you went guilty yourself or what ever the case : Delay 3 to 6 months in approval on top of normal time above . ( This applies even if cases was strck off or you were fined and paid it )

Not paid fines / unknown fines etc = Can be deferred for 1 year by minister ( Reapply after 1 year ) 50% of cases .

Away for more than 6 weeks = No problem as far as you declare with a valid reason .

What to avoid : Solicitors esp XYZ , XXXXX etc Department delays the cases as they believe you have something serious to hide / fight for . Otherwise why will you use a solicitor for a so simple application . This is what they think now so don't gun me down for that , take your own decisions . Nearly 20 cases who applied through solicitors are delayed for me from 1 month to 6 months .

Hi Iggy4, can you please advise wether i need to disclosed a minor offence? e.g. I didn't have a valid ticket in Dublin bus and the inspector issued me a standard rate notice which was paid within the day.

[markem]

Received a further update on numbers from another Dail question (again, not yet published):

Previously it was:

• 2015 & earlier: ~580 undecided applications
• 2016: 763 vs 13,018 total
• 2017: 2,787 vs 11,776 total
• 2018: 8,203 vs 12,724 total
• 2019: 2,556 on hand

And now:

• 2015 & earlier: 563
• 2016: 753 vs 13,018 total
• 2017: 2,142 vs 11,776 total
• 2018: 7,331 vs 12,724 total
• 2019: 5,220 vs approx 8,500 total year-to-date

In total there are 16,009 applications "on hand" - which is the highest since 2013. With no ceremony in sight, it looks like this is only going to get worse.

[Alixlboy]

Received a further update on numbers from another Dail question (again, not yet published):

Previously it was:

• 2015 & earlier: ~580 undecided applications
• 2016: 763 vs 13,018 total
• 2017: 2,787 vs 11,776 total
• 2018: 8,203 vs 12,724 total
• 2019: 2,556 on hand

And now:

• 2015 & earlier: 563
• 2016: 753 vs 13,018 total
• 2017: 2,142 vs 11,776 total
• 2018: 7,331 vs 12,724 total
• 2019: 5,220 vs approx 8,500 total year-to-date

In total there are 16,009 applications "on hand" - which is the highest since 2013. With no ceremony in sight, it looks like this is only going to get worse.

In the past, they have managed to close around 60,000 applications awaiting a decision, from what I have heard.
They can close these 16,000 apps easily, but, only if they want to.
They have literally no excuse to not to make a decision on apps going back as far as 2015. It's pure laziness and because no one protests against this either.

[markem]

In the past, they have managed to close around 60,000 applications awaiting a decision, from what I have heard.
They can close these 16,000 apps easily, but, only if they want to.

When did they do that? If you look at the chart (based on data from INIS), the most decisions they've made in a year (in the last 9 years) peaked at 30,000 in 2013. This was after "major reforms" introduced by the Minister to tackle the backlog. If it's not addressed soon, we'll be heading back towards the same issues. If they only have capacity to make 10,000 decisions a year... (seems to be the case) this is less than the number of applications they receive.

They have literally no excuse to not to make a decision on apps going back as far as 2015. It's pure laziness and because no one protests against this either.

I don't agree that it's laziness. I think the problem is a mix of poor processes and not enough people to get through the work.

[Alixlboy]

I meant 60k apps in a period of a couple of years, not just one year.
Whatever it is, they need to do something asap.