Working Rights for holder of EU Long Term Residence Permit

[MyMyMyanmar]

Leaving aside the issue of travelling without a visa, I believe this helpful forum has already made it clear that, technically speaking, my Burmese wife does not require a Schengen visa to enter the EU with me as I hold a UK passport.
So, let’s say we arrive at an EU border and I have enough documents to make our case (marriage certificate with translations, proof that we have co-habited as man & wife for four years). We then make our way to Italy. Here I lived for 16 years but never took up residency etc as I never imagined the Brits would be stupid enough to vote themselves out of Europe. Now I wish for us to make a life there.
Assuming we can enter, without a visa for my wife, what are our rights? I believe we have six months in which to find work? Do we need proof of funds in order to apply for a residence permit for her?
Most of the posts in this forum seem to be about travel and holidays in ‘other’ EU countries (especially out of the UK) but I can’t find much information about the rights of non-EU partners when moving directly into an EU country from outside the EU (and which is not the issuer of the other partner’s passport).
All help gratefully received as it’s time to move out of Myanmar!

[mgb]

Your wife cannot enter the schengen area without a visa.
She can get a visa either from a embassy or from a border post.
The problem is to reach a border post.

The procedure in Italy
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re ... dex_en.htm

family member
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re ... dex_en.htm

Here you can check if you are entitled for a permanent residence card
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re ... dex_en.htm

[MyMyMyanmar]

Thank you mgb for your info & links.

Regarding the Schengen visa: you say it can be taken from an Embassy before travelling, or at a Border Post. I have a couple of questions about this.
1. Would it be the same kind of visa issued at each place?
2. Would it be a tourist visa?
3. If it is a tourist visa, is it then more complicated to apply for a permanent residence card (‘permesso di soggiorno’)?
4. Am I wrong to think that she can enter the Schengen area without a visa as long as we can demonstrate a durable relationship etc? I find this: “Your family members cannot be automatically turned back at the borders if they do not have a valid passport or, if required, an entry visa, as long as they are able to prove their identity and family ties with you.”

Thanks for your time

[mgb]

Your wife would get a schengen visa with family member EU/EEA citizen or similar in the remark section.
Normally a border post issue such a visa for 15 days.
The problem is always to reach a border post. Nearly all airlines don't let boarding without a visa.
If she apply via a embassy mark other in field 21 of the schengen application form and write family member eu and apply for 90 days.

[FaarzH]

field 21 of the schengen application form and write family member eu and apply for 90 days.

there is option VISITING FAMILY OR FRIENDS AND CULTURAL SPORTS OFFICIAL VISIT MEDICAL STUDY AND LAST OPTION IS >>>> OTHER(PLEASE SPECIFY) we should put family member of EU in other right

i got married last year since then twice my wife came to Pakistan , is it necessary to live together for years then apply under directive ? our marriage is registered in both countries Poland and Pakistan

[mgb]

A marriage is not a civil partnership. The marriage certificate is the proof.
The option other is right.

[MyMyMyanmar]

Thank you for your further explanation mgb.

I now understand that my wife needs an entry visa for the Schengen zone and that she can get one, based on acceptable proof of her being my wife, at a border post (but likely to be just 15 days) or at an Embassy (possibly for 90 days).

Am I correct to think that getting a visa by either method is the only way to satisfy the legal entry requirement mentioned below?

“If you are a foreign family member of an Italian citizen or of an EU citizen and you have entered Italy legally, you can directly apply for the EC Long-Term Residence Permit (carta di soggiorno) for a family member of an EU citizen at the Questura or through the post office.“

If so, does this mean that either method is ok, provided the application is made before the 15 day or 90 day visa expires?

If I apply for a 90 day visa at an Embassy, should I declare my intention for us to stay in Italy or will that simply make them reject the application?
If I do not declare it, I guess I will need to provide a return ticket as evidence that we do NOT intend to stay?
This looks like potentially being a lose - lose situation to me!

Thanks again for your time

[FaarzH]

A marriage is not a civil partnership. The marriage certificate is the proof.
The option other is right.

when applying under directive is it necessary to tell them about our intention that we are going to stay there long ? means 90 days and file a residence permit there ?

return ticket and hotel reservation ??? such things are not written in directive but it is required or not ?

[mgb]

If so, does this mean that either method is ok, provided the application is made before the 15 day or 90 day visa expires?

A family member need only a visa for crossing the border if a visa required national. It is easier to prove the right of stay with a valid visa. The right of stay is coming directly from the eu directive.

If I apply for a 90 day visa at an Embassy, should I declare my intention for us to stay in Italy or will that simply make them reject the application?
If I do not declare it, I guess I will need to provide a return ticket as evidence that we do NOT intend to stay?
This looks like potentially being a lose - lose situation to me!

Thanks again for your time

A visa for a family member of a eu citizen is not a touristik or visitor visa.
Nobody has to prove a return flight or prove to leave the schengen area.
The first 3 month are unconditional and can be used for a short stay or as preparation for a long stay. A residence permit for a family member of a eu citizen in the guest country is not the business of a embassy.

[FaarzH]

A visa for a family member of a eu citizen is not a touristik or visitor visa.
Nobody has to prove a return flight or prove to leave the schengen area.
The first 3 month are unconditional and can be used for a short stay or as preparation for a long stay. A residence permit for a family member of a eu citizen in the guest country is not the business of a embassy.

i am extremly grateful to you sir that ur giving back alot to community , thank you very much

one question please , im a paksitani national wife is polish national , we want to visit portugese , lets say

we have polish and pakistani marriage certificate attested , question is we have to translate into pourtugese and attest it from portuguese ministry of foreign affairs too ?

[mgb]

I guess the portugese embassy in Pakistan has someone who can read and understand the language of Pakistan.

[FaarzH]

I guess the portugese embassy in Pakistan has someone who can read and understand the language of Pakistan.

mgb,i was talking about polish marriage certificate does it need a translation to submit in Portuguese embassy ? its already attested from mofa Poland

[CR001]

I guess the portugese embassy in Pakistan has someone who can read and understand the language of Pakistan.

mgb,i was talking about polish marriage certificate does it need a translation to submit in Portuguese embassy ? its already attested from mofa Poland

You have now hijacked user 'MyMyMyanmar' topic with your own questions. This is considered rude and is unfair to the OP. Please continue your questions in your own extensive thread you already have.

europe-immigration-forum/marriage-to-a- ... 34374.html

See also Q12 in this link (click)

[FaarzH]

I guess the portugese embassy in Pakistan has someone who can read and understand the language of Pakistan.

mgb,i was talking about polish marriage certificate does it need a translation to submit in Portuguese embassy ? its already attested from mofa Poland

You have now hijacked user 'MyMyMyanmar' topic with your own questions. This is considered rude and is unfair to the OP. Please continue your questions in your own extensive thread you already have.

europe-immigration-forum/marriage-to-a- ... 34374.html

See also Q12 in this link (click)

ok Maam

[MyMyMyanmar]

Hi CR001 and mgb,

I have been told by the Italian Embassy in Myanmar that I need to already be living in Italy, with a Residence Permit (“permesso de soggiorno”) before I can apply for a “Family Reunification Visa” for my partner. This seems to be at odds with what is stated on the ‘polizia dello stato’ website which says:
“Right of residence for up to three months:
Union citizens have the right of residence in Italy for a period of up to three months without any conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid travel document (i.e. identity card or passport).
These provisions also apply to family members accompanying or joining the Union citizen, who are not nationals of a Member State, provided that they are holders of a valid passport or an entry visa where required, or a valid residence card as family member of a Union citizen.”

Obviously I need to avoid annoying the Embassy staff as I need them to provide my partner with the “entry visa” as mentioned above. I suppose I need to tell them that it’s not the “Family Reunification Visa” I need, but a simple entry visa for my partner.

Any advice, comments or suggestions gratefully received....

Thanks

[mgb]

Let your wife apply for a visa for a family member of a eu citizen via the normal schengen application form.
Check other at field 21 and write family member EU.
The fields marked with a asterix doesn't have to be filled out.
Enclose a copy of the italian web site beside a copy of your passport and a copy of the marriage certificate. Additional write a short letter about that your wife will accompany you at your travel to Italy.

[MyMyMyanmar]

Thank you, mgb, for your ongoing support.

Rather than actually apply for the Schengen visa (we’re not at the stage of having actual dates of travel etc yet), I wrote again to the embassy and pointed out that the need for a Residence Permit followed by a ‘Family Reunification Visa’ does not apply to me because I’m an EU citizen and can enter, with my wife, for three months while exercising my right of Free Movement.

Their response was to say that my wife cannot apply for a Tourist Visa because I have already stated my intention is to settle back in Italy and will therefore obviously be staying longer than three months.

Of course I have responded by saying that I have never asked for a Tourist Visa because I know that it is not what I require. What I need is an ‘accompanying family member’ visa and I have asked them which documents they need to support that application.

I have asked this question about the documents because they are mentioned on the Schengen Visa Application Form:

“The fields marked with * shall not be filled in by family members of EU/EEA or CH citizens (spouse, child or dependent ascendant) while exercising their right to free movement. Family members of EU, EEA or CH citizens shall present documents to prove this relationship and fill in fields No 34 and 35.”

Which documents are likely to be requested? Will just a marriage certificate be enough? Is there any other requirements concerning how long we have been together - I mean is there still a need to demonstrate a “durable relationship” of any minimum period, like the two years for the unmarried partners?

Thanks for your time...

[mgb]

Marriage certificate and a declaration in writing that your wife will accompany you.
The embassy can ask for a legalised marriage certificate and a translation if they don't understand the language of the document.
Legal basis for a visa for a family member of a eu citizen in Italy is legislative decree 30/2007.
http://www.esteri.it/mae/normative/norm ... 0_2007.pdf

[MyMyMyanmar]

Dear mgb,

As I mentioned previously, I wrote again to the Embassy to explain that we need an ‘accompanying family member’ visa. Their response was to say that the request was so ‘unusual’ (“particolare”) that they needed to refer it to the Ministry in Italy.

Their next email has said that the Ministry has decided that my ‘companion’ does not possess all the necessary requirements to get that type of visa, but they do not list what these are.

They go on to say that we can apply for another visa, as long as all the requirements and restrictions are satisfied - but again without offering any details.

I guess I always knew this wasn’t going to be easy. Do you have any further advice?

Thanks...

[mgb]

Ask them how they interpret article 5 of the DECRETO LEGISLATIVO 6 febbraio 2007, n. 30

Additional visahandbook C(2010) 1620 part III
SPECIFIC RULES RELATING TO APPLICANTS WHO ARE FAMILY
MEMBERS OF EU CITIZENS OR SWISS CITIZENS

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites ... ted_en.pdf

[MyMyMyanmar]

Dear mgb,

While I wait for their latest response I am thinking ahead and would like to ask you two things:

1. Can you tell me if the Handbook is also available in Italian or are these kind of documents always in English (& could you even provide a link to it if it is?)

2. Regarding the Marriage Certificate I read that “a Member State may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalised....etc”. Getting the certificate legally translated from Burmese into Italian is probably impossible (at least without asking the Embassy to do it!) so will it be acceptable to do it into English and then into Italian??

Thanks

[mgb]

1. Sorry, I know only a link to the german and the french version.
2. If the embassy can understand Burmese they don't need a translation for the visa.
Maybe you need a translation in Italy for the carta di soggiorno. I don't know.

[MyMyMyanmar]

Dear mgb,

The latest response is brief and is as follows (my translation):

"Your wife is entitled to a free visa and facilitated procedure only in the case of a short visa, as already reported (to you)"

Then he has highlighted the words "free of charge short-term entry visa" from section 2.2.1 from this document: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF.
There is a link to that document in the handbook on page 88.

Am I correct in thinking that this is exactly the kind of visa that I will need? I believe I have read somewhere that if you obtain this visa at an actual border then the standard is just 15 days but when issued by an Embassy it should be 30, or maybe 90?

Of course we will then have to register at the Anagrafe etc and follow the procedure to obtain the EC Long-Term Resident Permit (permesso de soggiorno) and one of the requirements is that she has a passport "with visa, if required". Is this the correct visa?

Also, he has highlighted a section from the handbook itself, from section 3.6, again on page 88:

3.6. Supporting documents
In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e. proving that:
• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;
• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate, proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships ...) and his identity (passport); and
• the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU citizen will travel to the host Member State).

I do not know why he has highlighted this section. Am I correct to think that I can satisfy this section by simply producing travel documents proving that we will travel to Italy?

Thank you as ever for your time and help. I feel that we are getting close now!

[mgb]

You wife simply apply for a visa for the family member of eu citizen via the normal schengen application form.
Mark other at field 21 and write family member EU. Read the explanation about the asterix.
In field 25 the number 90 for the days and in fields 29 and 30 a period about 90 or 180 days. Mark multi entry in field 24.
Confirmation for accompany either flight tickets or a declaration in writing.
In Italy your wife has to apply for a carta di soggiorno in the first 3 month. If she don't want to stay longer than 3 month she has to do nothing.

[MyMyMyanmar]

Dear mgb,

Thank you for your ongoing assistance. I have written to them once more for confirmation and will let you know what they say.

Unfortunately I must now add another layer of complication which may not be in your area of expertise. Please let me know if I should start a new topic.

Obviously I am currently job-seeking in preparation for our move to Italy and I’m aware of the requirements for me, as a Union citizen, to stay longer than three months:

Registration with the Anagrafe (Register Office)
Right of residence for more than three months.
Union citizens have the right of residence in Italy for a period of longer than three months if they:

are workers or self-employed persons in Italy;

have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover, or any other equivalent means;

are enrolled at a private or public establishment for the purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training and have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system and a comprehensive sickness insurance cover;

are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who has the right to reside in Italy for more than three months.”

I work in Tourism and I have been offered a job by a Swiss-registered company which will involve me travelling throughout Europe. It will be a Swiss contract and I will pay my taxes in Switzerland. How might this affect my desire to be resident in Italy? Do I need an “Italian Job” or is it sufficient to show that I have sufficient income to support myself without needing State help, even if the job itself is not with an Italian company?

As far as I know Italy & Switzerland have a Duel Taxation Agreement and I already have an Italian codice fiscale (tax code).

Clearly I need to know that I will be given permission to stay before I can take my wife there as her EC Long Stay Residence Permit depends on it.

Thanks for any advice or information you can offer.